Speaker 1: 0:36

Welcome back to Speak Out. Standout by Green Communications. I'm Elizabeth Green, founder of Green Communications and today's guest expert. Back with us again is Anne Kaplan, parent coach, and Anne has shared a wealth of wisdom with us in the past, and today we're here to have a little bit more of a serious conversation that, ultimately, a lot of parents and families are going to be navigating, or already navigating, so an important one to have. So, anne, first of all, thanks for being here. We're glad to have you again. Oh yeah, thanks for having me back. So, just to kind of dive right in right, one of the things we're talking about, or the focus of our conversation today, is addiction and, specifically, conversation surrounding that right, because it's all about how we're communicating through these things as they come up in our lives and in our families. But first of all, anne, why don't we just backtrack and give us a little bit about you and, ultimately, how this conversation today applies to your life as well?

Speaker 2: 1:35

Sure. So, as you said already, I'm a parent coach. I have four kids of my own and so always the Venn diagram of my personal life and my professional life has a very large overlap and around addiction and substance abuse. That is also true. So I have four kiddos. My oldest is 18. And when he was 14, he started really going down a path of like really poor mental health that eventually led to substance abuse, that eventually led to addiction and addiction treatment and all of that stuff. So simultaneously, while I'm coaching and helping and supporting families around teenage stuff including substances and rules and boundaries and all of that stuff I'm also living the dream slash nightmare of dealing with all that stuff myself. So, yeah, this is like an extremely professional and personal topic for me for sure.

Speaker 1: 2:33

Well, that definitely makes you an expert on it, though, right, because sometimes you know we can speak about things that we know about, but have an experience, but it's very different when it's personal to you too. Yeah, absolutely All right. Well, let's just dive in again. I know this is not an easy conversation to have, and it's not. It's certainly something that we, as parents, hope that we never have to deal with in our families, but you know that's that we don't live in a perfect world, right? So many many of us will have to deal with the conversation of addiction in our children. So let's start with, like, backing up to. What are the numbers Like are we looking at? Is it more common in kids today? It seems like it is. Is it just because of social media and we hear more about it, or are we really seeing an increase in our kids trying more things and ultimately becoming truly addicted?

Speaker 2: 3:22

Right, I actually really love this question because you bring up something that's really important, I think, in all parenting conversations, which is the exposure that we have to worldwide stories about what's going on with kids and parenting and all that stuff. It is 10X 100X what we experienced when we were growing up. So it's very easy to hyperbolaise and catastrophize the stuff that we're being exposed to all of the time on social media and in the news and stuff like that. So we always want to like kind of have that sort of objectivity or just awareness in the background. In this particular case, it is true that more things are happening with kids now than when we were kids, and the real reason why is because we're seeing a real surge in mental health issues right now, not necessarily just because drugs are more readily available or have become normalized or any of that stuff. To me, that's a far more nuanced conversation that's harder to really pin down and say for sure. This is actually 100% accurate. But what we do know is accurate is that kids are experiencing a lot more mental health challenges now than ever before and because of that there's this obvious sort of like subsequent offshoot, which is substance abuse is on the rise too, because we know that addiction especially and substance abuse stem from a mental health situation.

Speaker 2: 4:57

Now, obviously kids experiment. We experimented when we were kids. Most likely everyone who's listening to this has experimented at some point in their life. So it's not to say like, oh, if you find a vape or a pipe or something in your kid's backpack, they definitely have a mental health problem. That is not what I'm saying. There's obviously a continuum of substance use that then can kind of like segue into abuse, that can segue into addiction. So it's not this like one size fits all. The second you know that your kid has had a sip of beer at a party, you're doomed, kind of to say. And I think that actually is really important for us to keep front and center in our minds as parents, because what happens when our kids do any sort of misbehavior, but especially with some of these really hot button things like lying, substance use, all of that stuff our brains go into like story caster mode, like they could put JK Rowling to shame. We are like Pulitzer Prize winning authors.

Speaker 2: 6:06

The second our kids do something that's just a little bit upsetting and triggering to us. So it is very easy. The second you like see something in your kid's backpack or whatever to really be off to the races about. Like well, I'm seeing this. What am I not seeing? And what does it mean? Why would they do this? Is it because I didn't teach them the dangers of substances? And is it because of peer pressure? Does somebody make them do this? Like right we're. All of a sudden it's like a choose your own adventure book of your nightmares is happening like the second. You just get that tiny little piece of information input. So really, really important to like keep our feet firmly on the ground as much as we humanly possibly can.

Speaker 1: 6:49

That's a great great way to start it and something to remind ourselves about. So let's start with the conversation of talking to our kids about this before it's an issue. Yeah, what are your tips and words of advice on how to have these?

Speaker 2: 7:02

conversations. You guys are not going to like my answer to this question because if you listen to the first interview or the first episode I was on, or if anyone listens to my podcast or whatever, you probably have heard me say many times, talking doesn't teach. So we need to understand. I mean, let's be realistic. We're talking about substance use. Essentially we're talking about preteens and mostly teenagers. So we need to be really really honest with ourselves about what's going on inside a teenage brain. When your kid starts using, it's not because nobody told them that that was a bad decision. It's not because your child is unaware that nicotine is addictive or that you know using pot can lead to X, y and Z, or that marijuana is a depressant, or all the stuff that we learned in the day or program Already knows that. It's not because of that that your kid is using, and so the idea that we can forestall or completely sidestep their poor decision to experiment or use or abuse by some amazing TED Talk slash, afterschool special slash the more you know thing is going to. That's not going to work. So I'm really sorry to say that Now what can work is very clear boundaries. So if you have established in your family. Here are the boundaries that we have as a family around substances. Here are the consequences around that. But I would even really caution you to not put too much emphasis on the consequences, because that can really come off as threatening your child, especially if they haven't even done anything yet, but to really just focus on, like, here's how our family works. You can do what you want with that information. The same as if I was talking to a nine year old or a six year old and saying, hey, in this family, treats are for kids who protect their teeth Instead of you can't skip brushing your teeth. If you don't brush your teeth, I'm not giving you treats and you have to brush your teeth. And here's a talk about dental hygiene. And do you want gum disease and cavities and lollipop? That doesn't work. I guarantee there's someone listening to this right now who's already tried sugar. Grammlings are in your mouth and back to your mouth. Your kids still to skip brushing your teeth because they don't want to and unless they know that there.

Speaker 2: 9:35

This is the boundary and this is the consequence. It was ever thus and now, child, I have created this amazing, beautiful container for you, inside of which you get to decide what you will do with that information and experience the outcome of that decision. Oh, you decided not to brush your teeth, no problem, I totally respect your choice. Looks like you're not going to be having dessert today, but you know that was your call. No worries, we do not need to have like this whole, like power struggle over tooth brushing.

Speaker 2: 10:06

The same is true about substances. Hey, in this family you are welcome to experience these privileges. As long as I'm not finding hair finalia in your room, I don't see that you're intoxicated. You know that I don't find drugs in our house, whatever, and you can completely decide to set that boundary. Now I'm giving you a hypothetical. I am not and I do not want anyone to take this to mean that we all have to have the same boundaries around substances. That is not true.

Speaker 2: 10:43

The boundaries in our home, whatever they are and whatever topic they're around, have to come from our own alignment, our own integrity, our own mental health. So there's a really big question to ask yourself when you're thinking about what boundaries to set around substances, which is why am I setting this boundary? It's very easy to say well, I'm setting it because it's not healthy and I don't want my kid to be healthy and safe. That's really great. Why do you want your kid to be healthy and safe?

Speaker 2: 11:19

If you keep at yying yourself, for most of us we will get to a place where it's because we can't even handle the terror and fear that we feel about the idea of our kids going down this really scary path of drug use, possible addiction, all the stuff that comes along with that self harm, legal issues, all the stuff. It's scary. So what's really happening? We're parenting out of fear. We control our children to lessen our discomfort, our fear, our anxiety. If that's your why, you have to be brutally honest with yourself, if that is even a part of your, why you're not done with your work.

Speaker 1: 12:04

What do you mean when you say that, that you're not done with your work?

Speaker 2: 12:07

Because your fear, your emotions, are your job. So if the reason why you're trying to lessen your emotions and your fear sorry, if the reason why you're disciplining your child is to manage your emotions, you're really going down the co-dependency highway full steam ahead. Your child's job in this world is not to show up in ways that don't upset you, and when you're upset, that is your job. Your upset is your job. So how many times have we?

Speaker 2: 12:39

I literally almost did this myself yesterday with my nine year old, who was being a real treat and I was not having a great time with him, and I totally found the words almost I'm going to say almost, I'm very proud of myself that they didn't but almost slip out of my mouth, which was I was trying for us to take space. I was like I'm really upset, I need to take space from you. You need to stay in your room, I'm going to go downstairs and he wouldn't stay in his room and I literally almost said and then I lost my temper because he kept following me around and I didn't get the space that I needed to manage my emotions and calm my nervous system down and I almost said to him I'm like I'm yelling at you because you wouldn't give me space, Like, especially essentially like this is your fault Me being upset with you right now. You did this to yourself. I obviously did not say that to my child, but that's what my brain was thinking.

Speaker 2: 13:38

If you had just stayed in your room, like I asked, and just given me like even five flippin minutes to cool my jets, I would not be yelling at you right now. That is what I was thinking and that that's like a tiny little microcosm example of how we make our feelings, our kids, job and accidentally send them the message over and over again. The way you show up in the world really needs to be primarily focused on how it makes everybody else feel, Especially so if the reason why we're setting boundaries around substances is because we are trying to make ourselves less scared. We are making our work, our kids job, and that's not right.

Speaker 1: 14:30

But there can be some overlap there, right? Like I mean, obviously we're going to be afraid that, that's you know. We don't want to deal with that, but if we can be truly honest and say that my number one reason for this is for their benefit, right?

Speaker 2: 14:43

There can be some overlap, right, that happens. That happens after you've done your work. So, if you notice and this is true once again for every parenting situation like what, what really is different about substance use, especially once before we've gotten into the addiction world what really is different about substance use isn't substance use, it's our story about substance use. Well, this is different because it's really really, really scary versus teeth brushing like, oh well, what's the worst that could happen? You need a filling. If you are able to look at the triggering behaviors that our kids possibly can be doing or are doing, like lying, stealing, using substances, all of that stuff If you're able to look at those with the same objectivity as you're able to look at throwing a ball in the house, missing a homework assignment, not brushing your teeth they're bad decisions, they're mistakes that our kids are making, plain and simple. If we were able to actually look at those things through that same lens, we realized like the same principles apply no matter what. The only thing that makes it different is how hard it is to apply those. It's way easier to apply those principles to uh-oh, you threw a ball in the house or, oops, you chose not to brush your teeth, way easier to apply the principles of non-attachment, managing my emotions, setting boundaries that are not about taking care of my feelings and all of that stuff. Way easier to apply that stuff to those low stakes things. But that doesn't mean the principles don't change when it gets harder. It just means it's really hard to apply those principles. So when you realize that you're setting a goal or, sorry, setting a boundary solely to manage your own emotions around this scary thing, job number one is to take care of your emotions. Do your work, manage your nervous system, get therapy, possibly, or work with a coach like me. Do meditation, mindfulness, work, journaling, educate yourself, whatever you need to do to actually process and own those feelings for yourself. Because then, on the other side of that, now you can look at this situation that still probably does need boundaries and discipline around without your emotions and your negative, fearful, dysregulated emotions being the thing that dictates how you handle that situation.

Speaker 2: 17:11

Now I can, I've done my work. Now I can look at the situation and say, okay, all right, I found a vape pen in my kid's backpack and this universal experience Other of like a freshman or sophomore in high school, or even an eighth grader, that's like the first thing that I usually hear is I found blah in my kid's backpack and it's usually a vape pen. So, okay, took care of my emotions, I'm not a spaz attack anymore. Now what am I gonna do about the fact that I found this vape pen in my kid's backpack? My head's on straight, I can figure this out and it's not an either or thing. It's not like. Oh well, you're all stirred up about this, so you shouldn't be parenting at all. You just need to go in the corner and cry yourself to sleep. But also, you can't show up in a parenting role and discipline with integrity unless you also are going in a corner and crying yourself to sleep. You need to deal with your feels.

Speaker 1: 18:13

Deal with your feels. I like it. I like it. Deal with your feels. Yeah, so, and I guess you know in once, we take the emotion out of it and the fear that we experience. If we go back to what you said originally, we set clear boundaries from the start then it's not a matter of how do I deal with this. We've already established how this is going to be dealt with, right.

Speaker 2: 18:36

Now it's a matter of walking your top. Okay, you said that if you know that he was gonna be using drugs or if you found any of these X, y and Z things that he was gonna lose his phone or he lost access to the car or you weren't going to, you know, drive him around because, like some of us were dealing with this stuff Actually a lot of us are dealing with this stuff before our kids are even old enough to drive. So really we actually have so much bargaining power, because how often does a 14 or a 15 year old ask you to drive them somewhere or get them something or do something for them or pick something up from the grocery store for them or whatever? All the time, probably like every three minutes or something, all of those things you can say. You know, I'm sorry, but I just really don't feel like I've got the energy to do that for you right now You've really broken a boundary.

Speaker 2: 19:36

You've crossed a boundary in our family, yeah, oh no. So yeah, then you obviously do need to walk your talk. But you know what we're talking about right now is a simple doesn't seem simple, but a relatively simple scenario of occasional substance use that's against the rules of the house and you know that you have boundaries around that. Some families don't and that's totally fine. Like I said, your boundary does not have to be your child can never use substances and you can have, you know, very, very specific and personal individual rules and expectations and values around that stuff. So there's no right or wrong answer there. But you know, then we start to segue into like okay, but how about abuse of substance, not just use of substances, and how do we know when that's happening? What do we do about it and when is it more than abuse? But it's actually addiction?

Speaker 2: 20:39

And chances are, if you're asking yourself that question, I'm probably not the first source you're going to to find out the answer to that. Like most families, by the time, their kids are regularly using it, starting to impact their mental health, their performance, their experience at school, like all of those things, we've already started down the path of getting support and help for our kids, for our family, all of that stuff. So if I am the one and only source for information on this topic that you're listening to right now, I encourage you to really expand and cast a wider net. I should not be the only person. For sure, we want your kids to be getting mental health care. We want you to be getting mental health care. We want you to have a team of support that's helping you really keep a good head on your shoulders and figuring out what to do next.

Speaker 2: 21:43

But I do believe that parent coaching is a huge part of that, because addiction isn't something that just happens out of the blue, and what I mean by that isn't that it couldn't blindside you, because it absolutely can and absolutely did to me. But what I mean when I say it doesn't happen out of the blue is that there's stuff happening behind the scenes, and addiction is the outcropping. It's sort of like the tip of the iceberg. It's the symptom that we see for the things that are happening behind the scenes. So the solution to addiction is not sobriety. So you, let's say it were possible for you parenting a kid who's grappling with addiction to keep them sober Like you, are actually able to make sure they had no access to substances at all, which is a really big hypothetical, because you can't do that.

Speaker 1: 22:32

But let's just say you could.

Speaker 2: 22:35

That does not mean your child's not suffering with addiction. It just means that they're sober. The opposite to addiction is connection. The approach to addiction treatment that is most effective and longest lasting has so much more to do with mental health, relationships, healing and past wounds than it does with substances. And if we don't address those pieces of the puzzle, your child might be sober, but the second they're not strapped to the wagon. They will immediately fall off.

Speaker 2: 23:13

When our son was in treatment and it was looking like it was time for him to reintegrate and come back home and all of that stuff my husband and I had several conversations where I literally said like our kid is not on the wagon, he's strapped to the wagon, and when he comes home, that is really gonna be the first time where he's choosing sobriety versus it being foisted upon him, and so it's a real make or break moment for him.

Speaker 2: 23:44

Is that something he's going to actively continue to choose, or the second, that he's not being forced against his will to stay sober, will he elect a different path? And so we focus so much as parents on the sobriety thing. We just don't want them to use anymore, and we can see so clearly how they're using is exacerbating all of these other problems in their lives. So it seems really logical to us that if they just wouldn't use, all of a sudden these other problems in their lives would begin to improve as well. And when we put our focus on the sobriety piece, we're really missing the most important stuff. It's a red herring the substance use.

Speaker 2: 24:27

And it's also an impossible game of whack-a-mole. You cannot put. There are not enough fingers to put in all the holes of that dam, and if you're in that place of constantly trying to plug up the holes, your kid probably needs something bigger than you can give them at home.

Speaker 1: 24:44

And so when you this is really eye-opening too, because what you said just hits the nail on the head we just don't want them to do it right. But even if we take every single aspect or like opportunity away from them, it can't remain like that forever, so that's not going to work Well. So what do you suggest if somebody has very strong feelings that their child is struggling with addiction? But the child, but they've never broached the conversation. Let's just start with that. How do you broach that conversation with a kid? I think about, like when with adults right, you have interventions, things like that you want them to choose to make a change. It's different when it's your child, because it's almost like I'm gonna force them to make a change. You can't do that with your friends in an intervention. It's a totally different mindset. So how do you broach the conversation?

Speaker 2: 25:32

Yeah. So I once again get your own head on straight first. So if you're starting to try to have like this sort of epiphany conversation with your child, of like I'm gonna just say this in a way that's really gonna get through to you and you're gonna get the memo, Before you try to do that, really get right with yourself first and recognize all the things that you just said, Elizabeth. Like you can't control them, you can't control whether they're gonna choose to use or not, and you also probably don't know what's going on internally for them. Most kids know that they have really veered off course by the time they're at this point that we're talking about right now.

Speaker 2: 26:18

Most kids have a lot of shame about it. They also probably have a lot of anger, and then we don't know. We also don't know the wounds that they're dealing with internally, and I think that's one of the hardest things for families when they do finally decide to really look this thing in the face and get the help that they need. There's a lot of realizations, reveals. I would say to parents, even the most tuned in parent, even the parent who's been alongside their child every step of the way I mean you're talking to a parenting professional I am a good parent Like if you saw me fly on the wall I do my absolute utmost to practice what I preach. I'm not perfect, but I also know for a fact that perfection is not necessary in terms of being a good parent and giving your kid all the protective factors they need. It was not pleasant for me to find out from my 15, 16 year old son all of the feelings and stories that he had been telling himself about me and our family, unbeknownst to me for 15 years. We don't know what's going on inside this kiddo, but we do know that something is absolutely going on inside them, and so, before you have that conversation, do your absolute best to manage your own emotions, heal whatever you've got going on and then really approach that conversation with curiosity and no agenda. So if your point of your conversation is to get some specific outcome from your kiddo, you're lost before you even be gone. So one of the things I teach my clients right out of the gate and this could be once again, we're talking about a really heavy topic these principles apply to everything from your toddler to your teenager that we do not try to solve discipline problems with conversation. It doesn't work. Talking doesn't teach. What teaches children is modeling and experiences. And we give kids experiences when we set and hold boundaries and we model for them when we take care of our own stuff with integrity. So that means that what is the point of our conversation, son, if the point of the conversation isn't to discipline this child or change their behavior, what is the point? The point is to connect with them, which, remember, is the opposite of addiction, is the antidote to addiction is connection. If you come into that conversation guns blazing, saying listen, this can't go on anymore, you cannot do this, don't you see all these things? And you're probably high right now while we're talking, you might as well just not have said anything, but coming into a conversation just saying, hey, I noticed that this is going on with you and I'm just really curious, what's your take on it? And you can hear you can learn a lot If you're wondering if your child's struggling with addiction. You can learn a lot from listening to their answer to that question.

Speaker 2: 29:19

But some kids will say, like, I'm just really doing bad. I feel these really intense emotions. I know that this isn't right. I want to stop, I need help, blah, blah, blah, fabulous. Some kids will be like my take on it is everything's hunky-dory and if you would just get the F out of my life, everything would be great.

Speaker 2: 29:39

I had a conversation with my son who was very 100% serious and convinced that this was accurate. The only reason why I'm depressed is because you won't let me smoke weed. If you would let me smoke weed, I would just feel happy because you wouldn't be telling me I can't do the thing I want to do. My depression is because you won't let me smoke weed. And that was true to him. That was his truth, 100%. And even in that conversation I was like well, it's really interesting that you think that because, well, first of all, marijuana is a depressant and, second of all, you have depression and you are on medication to treat depression. So I find it interesting that you don't believe that taking a depressant while you're on anti-depressants would affect the chemical situation going on in your body and maybe impact the ability of those anti-depressants to help you with your depression. This is when I was not doing all the stuff that I'm trying to tell everybody else.

Speaker 2: 30:41

I was absolutely trying to convince Elijah to stop using weed in that conversation, and I will give you one guess as to whether or not that worked.

Speaker 1: 30:53

So what did work? What boundaries?

Speaker 2: 30:57

Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. And if you so I really encourage every person on here. If you think, even if you're wonder if your child is struggling with addiction, even if you just found a vape pen and you cannot stop fretting about it and you know that you're like off to the races, and even though everything on this podcast makes sense to you, you still can't really make yourself calm down. Go to an Al-Anon or a Nar-Anon meeting. You can find them everywhere all day long, like I promise you, wherever you are. There are like five meetings happening within the next three hours.

Speaker 2: 31:31

Go to a meeting, because one of the most important things that you will learn anytime we're in a relationship with somebody who's struggling with substances, is that the one and only path to freedom for both of you is boundaries. So you can have a tuned in conversation with your child where you say, hey, this is what I noticed, what's your take on it? Validate there most. This is the one-two punch of communication, especially with teenagers validation plus open-ended, empowering question. So I think things are great. Mom, I don't see what your problem is. You're overreacting. Everybody smokes weed. Get over it. Validate that which will be hard, and remember validation is not the same as agreeing. I'm not saying you agree with your child, say wow, well I can see why you'd still be using drugs. If you feel like I'm overreacting, that makes perfect sense.

Speaker 2: 32:29

Or no wonder you're so angry at me. Every time I wanna talk to you about weed, you think I'm overreacting and making a big deal out of nothing. That makes perfect sense Validate, validate, validate and then ask a follow-up question. That's not like. Well, don't you think you're making a big mistake? That is not an open-ended, empowering question.

Speaker 2: 32:53

We want you to be asking a question that's like why do you suppose you do that? Like, what do you like about it? What made you try it in the first place? I'm so curious how is it affecting you at school? Maybe you don't think it's affecting you at all. Like all of these questions that are just about encouraging our kids to reflect and become introspective and consider these things for themselves, they are not going to come to the conclusion you want them to, or, if they do, it will take them way longer than you want it to take. But the point isn't that you're changing their trajectory. The point in the conversation is that you're connecting. Then you have the boundaries. You can say well, I hear what you're saying. You do not want to stop. It feels really good and great to you. You're the boss of your body and I can't control your body and it'll be stupid for me to try and also hypocritical, at least in our family, because we spent like 15 years teaching our children you're the boss of your body.

Speaker 2: 33:51

Now let me tell you all the things you're not allowed to do with your body. It just wasn't right for us. But you can say, just so you are aware these privileges are available to people who are clean, or we do not approve of this, or whatever. And here is the boundary. So one of my now it's funny now when I look back on it one of my funniest boundary setting conversations with Elijah was when I was like you cannot be high in this house. You cannot have weed in your room, you cannot have paraphernalia in your room, you may not use drugs in our house. I never said to him you can't use drugs, like literally. I didn't say this to him, but literally he could have taken what I had said and made it mean oh sweet, so I can just get high in the alley, or I'll just smoke in the garage.

Speaker 2: 34:44

Like obviously I did not want him to come away with that conclusion that literally fit with the boundary that I was setting. Technically he would not accept it. He thought I was being a crazy person for telling him that he couldn't get high in his bedroom. Like he really felt like it was his God given right to just smoke weed in his room and what was my problem with that? But the point is I was able to set that boundary and say you know what?

Speaker 2: 35:13

You don't have to agree and a lot of times when we're having these boundary setting moments, it's we need to agree, to disagree. You totally have every right in the world to think that the boundary I'm setting is ridiculous. You have every right to disagree with me. You have every right to violate the boundary that I'm setting. You are in charge of whether you choose to follow or break or cross a boundary. You absolutely get to decide that and this is the boundary and whatever you choose, I'll respect your choice. Here's how I'm gonna take care of myself around this boundary. So now with Elijah, we set boundaries. He could not follow the boundaries and, luckily for us, we had a lot of information and knowledge and experience and training on our side that helped us be able to see and understand that when Elijah couldn't follow a boundary, it was really because he truly could not.

Speaker 1: 36:15

Once you're in the throes of addiction.

Speaker 2: 36:16

No boundary can stop you because your addiction will win every time. So we really made a conscious decision that we set up the container for Elijah and we knew that if he couldn't stay within that container it was truly because, not because he didn't want to or not even because he didn't try, but because he truly could not, and that was a sign for us that he needed something more. So within this container, lots of boundaries about hey, if you miss curfew, that's how many minutes your curfew is advanced the next day. So if your curfew is nine and you get home at 9.15, well, tomorrow your curfew is 8.45. And if you lie, here's what we do about it and all those little boundaries and things.

Speaker 2: 37:06

But ultimately we also had a very sort of bigger boundary, which was three strikes with substances, and after that we know that you need something bigger than what we can provide you at home. So whether it's finding paraphernalia, finding substances, you failing a drug test or us just realizing and observing you to be intoxicated, those will all count as strikes. And if you have a third strike, then we know what we're doing at home isn't enough for you to need something bigger than that. And that is what happened. Elijah had a third strike and so he had to go and be in.

Speaker 2: 37:50

We did wilderness therapy for three months and then after that he had residential treatment and it saved his life 100% and it totally saved our family, because he definitely needed more than what we could give him at home. It wasn't a punishment, it wasn't your bad so you can't live with us anymore or we don't like you, or it wasn't anything like that. It was literally just the same as if he had gotten diagnosed with cancer and he needed radiation and chemotherapy. Like well, I don't have that at my house, so we're going to have to go to the hospital to give that to you.

Speaker 2: 38:24

It's not because you're bad, it's not because I'm punishing you. It's because you have a sickness that I can't treat in home. It needs to be somewhere else and addiction truly is a sickness. So when we say things like you know, elizabeth, you've said a couple times and I think it's so telling and it's so common and so normal Like well, how can we set this stuff up so it doesn't, so we just don't need this and it never can happen.

Speaker 2: 38:49

You can't, and if this is like what's in your child's future, the best thing you can do is to walk alongside him or her with integrity, with boundaries, with you taking care of yourself, because they have a long road to hoe and they will do it so much better when they have the buy-in and participation and true health mental health of their parents with them along that path.

Speaker 1: 39:22

Yeah, Wow, I think I mean such a good conversation and I think it's interesting that we've had a heavy conversation and still laughed along the way. So one of the things I love about talking to you but so many good things to pull from this I love too. When you said validating is not agreeing with, yeah, that was something I made a note of too, because I think those are just all really really great points that we can use. One last question I know we're short on time here, but one last question Back to kind of the communication side of things For the kids, let's say, the siblings that are seeing this, and they know what's going on to some extent, right. To some extent, especially in your situation. Right, your other children knew that Elijah wasn't living with you anymore for a short period of time, right? What do we? Do you have any words of wisdom or advice to talk about these things with the kids who are impacted?

Speaker 2: 40:17

Yeah. So this is where I think the way that I work with parents is so important, which is to say that I use a relationship based approach to parenting, whether we're talking about the relationship with one between one parent and the child and then the second parent and the child, which helps so much with parents not feeling like they need to be on the same page and control each other and stuff like that, so you can get to create your own relationship with your kiddo. And that also applies between siblings. Your siblings, your kids, each have a unique, sacred, singular relationship between them and their sibling and that is something that you can facilitate healing around, but you cannot control it or manage it or fix it or heal it or any of that stuff that has to come from those two siblings. So when your child let's say you've got a sibling who's either really afraid because of what they've seen their sibling do, or really sad, or they are mad at you because you sent their sibling away, or all of those things, once again same stuff. Those, remember, conversations are not about changing or fixing anything. They're just about connection. Have that connected conversation with your kiddo, validate what they're feeling Like. It makes perfect sense that you're angry with me, of course. You woke up and your sibling is gone, like who wouldn't be mad.

Speaker 2: 41:46

I can't blame you at all for thinking that, right, and you know why do you think that we had to do this? Or why do you think it might be a good thing? Right, all of that stuff has to be led by your kiddo, so you can't say why do you think it might be a good thing? If they're like this is a terrible thing. Well, but what if it was a different way? That I would rather you see it. But you know, if they're saying, like well, I feel kind of guilty. Okay, what do you feel guilty about? Well, I feel kind of guilty because I'm a little bit relieved that they're gone. Oh yeah, that makes total sense. I get that. You know what I actually feel that way too a little bit. Like I feel really guilty about how calm and happy I feel right now.

Speaker 2: 42:34

Whoa, now we're both having the same experience, you know, and that's when you can say, like so, maybe there's actually part of this that's good for us, even though it's really sad that they had to go away. What might that good stuff be? You know that kind of thing. So, but remember that it's not about them. Well, first of all, these conversations are never one and done. It's always just like interesting. I'll let that marinate for you and maybe tomorrow you'll have made ever different conversation, or you know, my favorite thing that I ever hear out of my kids mouths is I was thinking about that thing you said the other day. I'm like oh yes.

Speaker 2: 43:15

You know, I had a conversation with one of my other kids a couple months ago where we were talking about like body Positivity and obesity. I don't know how we even got on that topic and I was like you know, I think Sounds like from some of the stuff you're saying that you might really feel a little bit judgmental of people who are overweight and and he's like whatever. And he left and like two hours later he came back to me. Is like I've been thinking about what you said and I think I do judge people who are overweight and I'm like, wow, cool, I think you do too. Why do you think you do that? And it's really really cool conversation comes out of it.

Speaker 2: 43:49

So this your kid is gonna be going on their journey, just like you are, of grappling with being in a relationship with an addict and it is Nothing that anybody wants, of course. Like it still feels like nails on a chalkboard sometimes when I say like my son is an addict, or I'm in a relationship with an addict, or you know we have addiction in our family. It's doesn't feel Real sometimes, like that's not the story I told myself about my family back when I was like pregnant and all starry-eyed about Becoming a mother right.

Speaker 2: 44:27

Yeah but always like we have our work to do, parallel alongside our kids, while they are Getting treatment for addiction or working on addiction, which is to realize like, well, what, what's my unfinished business so that I can actually show up? And most parents, at least part of our unfinished business is blaming ourselves like what could I have done differently, so this didn't ever happen, right?

Speaker 1: 44:52

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 44:53

I must have screwed up big time for my kid to be doing doing this poorly, and you know. What you're really doing is just make taking this kid's story and making it yours, which isn't true, and instead Knowing that you did the best that you could. You still have lots to learn and grow, just like every human, and Whatever your kid comes, learns and discovers that they need to help them along their path, you get to rise to that occasion, but definitely what they don't need is for you to like self-flagellate the entire time they're in treatment. Yeah, because then, like your family therapy sessions, just look like mom and dad, like beeping and rending their garments, and you know that's not helpful.

Speaker 2: 45:39

You know, imagine if you were in a like in a friendship, and your child and your friend did something that hurt you and you told them that it hurt you, and instead of them saying like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, I had no idea, how can I make it right? What can I do to support you now? Instead they just spent the rest of your like coffee date crying and talking about a piece of garbage they were. Would that actually help take care of your hurt feelings or help you move on from that?

Speaker 1: 46:06

event.

Speaker 2: 46:07

No, no. That's not what we need from people. Our kids do not need us to like, feel like garbage. Tell them we're garbage, treat ourselves like garbage, like that's. That's not useful to anybody right right.

Speaker 1: 46:20

Well, I think you know, one of the things that I take away to from conversations with you is our focus is always how can we communicate with our kids about this? But when I talked to you a lot of times it comes back to how can we communicate with ourselves about this? Yeah, and that is that's. That's really, you know, an important, a hugely important piece of it, right, absolutely Well, and we really really appreciate you being vulnerable and sharing such. You know such a story and, like you said, nobody wants to Be in that situation and talking about it with a bunch of strangers. You know, it's not always something we want to do, but I am positive that your story helps other people and, if anybody is whether it's addiction or, like we said earlier, getting your kids to brush your teeth, whatever if they feel like they're struggling and really would like to connect with you more, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you?

Speaker 2: 47:07

well, the best way to find out all the ways is to go to my website, which is and Kaplan parent coach, comm, and If you go to that website you're gonna see all this cool stuff.

Speaker 2: 47:18

You can get in touch with me in so many ways. You can just literally contact me from my website. You can also get my free guide, getting kids to listen the first time, which, after this podcast, I bet you know that it's like a trick and once you actually open the workbook you'll realize that it's not about getting kids to do anything, but it really helps kind of teach you the fundamental principles that I use to teach my clients discipline strategies but apply to this very universal situation we find ourselves in, which is repeating ourselves constantly and no one's listening to us and all that stuff. So, getting kids to listen the first time, you can find that on my website. You can also just find there's a bit lily link for it bitly slash kids who listen, and You'll be able to find the podcast there. But the coolest thing that you could find on my website is a link to set up a consultation with me, which is totally free and will blow your mind whether or not you decide to continue working with me after that one beautiful hour of connection.

Speaker 1: 48:18

Well, I have appreciated our hour of connection here and I really encourage everybody to go check out her website, get on the mailing list. The emails are fantastic, so relatable. If you're anywhere in the throes of parenting, it is definitely great information delivered right here inbox every week. So we'll make sure we link to all of that, too, in the show notes and we really again Appreciate all your time and your awesome insight. Thank you for being here, of course. Thanks, elizabeth.