Speaker 1: 0:36

Welcome back to Speak Out Standout. I'm Elizabeth Green, and today we are joined by Jess Nagy. Jess is a mom of two. She is a survivor and a trauma support specialist with a passion of helping moms build community and empower their children to navigate their destructive family systems. She's also the founder of Mosaic Motherhood, which is a community of warrior moms who are navigating co-parenting with a destructive individual. So kind of a heavy topic to talk about today, but absolutely an important one. Jess, thanks so much for your time. Happy to have you here. Thanks for having me, elizabeth. So, jess, obviously you work with lots of families in especially this niche. But tell me, like, how did you get here? Why is this your focus? Why is this your mission in life?

Speaker 2: 1:23

This is my focus and my mission because it is also my story. So I often say my kids saved my life. I don't think that I would have gotten out of my destructive marriage if it wasn't for the fact that it was eventually affecting my children. And I saw that if it had just been me I might still be there. But when it came to my kids, my inner mama bear reared its head and said no more.

Speaker 2: 1:50

So, over a long process, when I was deciding, after I left that relationship, what I was going to do with myself afterwards, there were obviously some serendipitous moments, but my underlying mission was it's my turn to save their life, it's my turn to help them. And as I was coming out of this, there were a lot of resources for women in destructive relationships, abusive relationships. There's all kinds of resources for single moms, but there there weren't and to my knowledge, there still isn't many resources out there to help kids who don't have the choice of leaving that relationship because he's still going to be dad or she's still going to be mom or grandma's still going to be in the picture. And so how do we equip them to go forward and thrive while they're still faced with this destructive relationship themselves?

Speaker 1: 2:50

Well, I think it's a very honorable mission for sure, and something that is so important to have access to. So, just like starting off, though, one of your big things is navigating co-parenting with a destructive individual. So my first question is why co-parent with somebody who's destructive? Why keep them a part of the life or the family?

Speaker 2: 3:15

Well, a lot of times you don't have that choice.

Speaker 2: 3:18

If you have minor children with someone, at least here in the States, let's just say here in North America typically the courts are not going to completely sever ties for those children with their parent and therefore you're stuck with them until the kids turn 18 at least.

Speaker 2: 3:39

So you don't really have a choice.

Speaker 2: 3:41

Now there are other points, thoughts, opinions, points of view on parallel parenting or you know fighting for custody and you know pushing your case and all of these things, and I just don't see that coming to the productive end that a mom would hope for. I see that unless you have hard documented evidence of abuse towards the children and when I say abuse I mean physical or sexual the courts don't see anything else and they are not going to relinquish parenting rights because as much as they say, oh, we're in the best interest of the child, it's really not. It's parents' rights is the bottom line in the court system. So if you know, going in, that you're not likely to get 100% parenting time and 100% decision making, then it's in your best interest to work well with this person as long as that's possible Now I do realize that in some cases that isn't possible and parallel parenting with no contact is the only way forward. However, that is the minority that I see in the clients that I work with and even my friends in these circles.

Speaker 1: 5:05

Gotcha. So this is not about staying in a negative or destructive relationship. It is about navigating things when you are forced to still be in that person's world, right?

Speaker 2: 5:16

Right, so it can be both. I do have clients who have chosen to stay because they are able to detach and emotionally live their lives in parallel with someone who's living under the same roof as them, and in these cases the reason, above and beyond the majority of other reasons, the main reason they choose to stay is because they believe and have seen proof that they can help to educate their children and have the majority of parenting influence with their children, and dad sort of does his thing on the side or he kind of comes in and out and occasionally he may help, which is like the terry on the cake, but for the most part they are primary parent in that household and they're able to manage their own emotions and help their children in that situation. Gotcha Okay.

Speaker 1: 6:12

So, and obviously any kind of family separation, divorce, all of these things are hard for the family and the kids in any scenario, but there's certainly a very thick added layer in a destructive scenario when we're talking about abuse, narcissism, things like that. So I mean diving right in like how do we help our children navigate this situation?

Speaker 2: 6:36

So the biggest thing is to build their resilience, and I hear people say all the time oh, kids are resilient, they'll be fine. But let me ask you is there absolutely nothing from your childhood that Messed you up as an adult?

Speaker 2: 6:54

No, right like right we all have something from our childhood that created either a poor coping mechanism or a traumatic memory, or whatever the case may be. Even the best parents oftentimes Can create scenarios that aren't ideal for a child to grow up to be the best version of themselves and, of course, in a destructive situation and a destructive family system, you're gonna have a lot more of that. So I don't I really I disagree. I don't think children are resilient. At least that's not this innate quality that they're born with, that they just Are fine no matter what happens to them. However, you can build their resilience and you do that through strong relationships with at least one safe parent and other adult figures and Building their emotional regulation.

Speaker 1: 7:53

And I think when I hear resilience, I think of like we're moving. Our kids are resilient, they'll make new friends, they'll adjust in school and things like that. But we're talking about something totally different, much more, you know, emotionally intense. You know, being a part of a destructive family or not destructive family, that's not the right word. But you know what is. What is the right word here? What? How do we appropriately say this?

Speaker 2: 8:16

Well, I know it's a mouthful, but I say destructive family system because the system itself is going to be destructive, even if there is a safe parent involved, whether you're All living under the same roof or whether you're separated.

Speaker 1: 8:31

Okay, gotcha Okay. So in this destructive family system, how do we build resilience in our kids?

Speaker 2: 8:39

well, it comes back to really great communication, no matter the age of your child and Emotional regulation, and that will start with the safe parent first. So the safe parent, and in my case I only work with mom, so I will typically revert to saying mom. That doesn't necessarily mean that mom is always the safe parent, like I recognize that there are men who have destructive Partners etc, etc. But if I say mom, I mean the safe parent. So the safe parent needs to have great communication with her children, needs to create an environment of connection above all else and safety, and then she also needs to be able to understand her own emotions, regulate them and then teach her children Explicitly to do the same. I mean, everything is yes, there is more caught than taught, but if you can model something and teach it, that's obviously the best case scenario.

Speaker 1: 9:44

Yeah, for sure. And so what are some of these techniques that you you lean to whenever you're working with moms on how to regulate our emotions and Teach it to our kids?

Speaker 2: 9:54

Yeah, this is something that I'm super passionate about, and there are so many techniques out there. I'm working on writing a course right now that actually covers four different modules and each module has at least 15 different techniques in it. So there's everything from basically using your senses to ground yourself and Using your breath, and, kind of as an aside when I say regulation, let me explain a little bit what I mean by that. For me, the term regulation can equate to homeostasis, but I absolutely hate using that word because it's big and it's science and not everyone understands. I'm not sure I fully understand what it means. So I like to say a connection with yourself and connection with the present moment. So when our brains are triggered, we're not in the present moment. We are either in a moment that happened in the past and we're associating that, so like a flashback, or we're we're already down the road half a mile and Assuming that this bad thing is going to happen and our brains are not functioning at full capacity. So Regulation is going to be. I know what's happening in my body and I know that my body is right here in this moment, right now. And when I say resilience, I think you actually hit it and described it fairly well in your example of moving where Resilience is, moving forward on a continuum right and being able to consistently improve our ability to handle outside stress and dysfunction and hardship and Move through that without succumbing to pressure or, you know, just falling in line or complete Dissociation like any of those things that can happen. So so, to get back to your original question, some of the techniques that I use could be, for example, one that I absolutely love and one of the ones that has been super helpful for my kids is Called the emotional countdown.

Speaker 2: 12:03

So I will pick a color or have my kids pick a color when, let's say, my daughter's melting down about homework right, it's really hard, she doesn't want to do it, she's had a long day at school, she really wants her screen time and I'm like, nope, sorry, you got to get your homework done. So if she's super dysregulated in that moment I'll say, okay, honey, pick a color. And she might say pink or red or whatever. So let's say she says pink, I say, okay, find five things that you can see that are pink and she'll list those five things. So she's using her sense of sight to locate, like that's her body connection and she's in the present moment looking around the room, and that's her present moment connection.

Speaker 2: 12:48

And then from there I'll say, okay, four things that you can hear, three things that you can feel with your skin, two things that you can smell and One thing that you can taste, and I mean that one's kind of weird. So sometimes I'll say, alright, well, if you could eat anything in the world right now, what would it be? And by the time they get to that one, they're typically in a much more Regulated state, not necessarily calm. They might still be frustrated or flustered or whatever the case may be, but they are able to continue with this hard thing without, you know, completely losing their marbles.

Speaker 1: 13:32

And why is that? Is it? I mean, is it just a distraction technique or does it actually do something to like the inside door nervous system to calm us?

Speaker 2: 13:41

Yeah, so both, there is a little bit of distraction, for sure, we're putting the focus on something else, but using our five senses triggers the brain to remind us where we are at that present moment. So there are so many different techniques. One that I think I've seen a lot lately in like TV shows, for example, is like the mustache, where you press your finger between your nose and your top lip and just that little bit of pressure, that little bit of connection reminds you that like, oh, I'm here, my skin feels warm, like my fingers under my nose, I'm not out of control, I'm not in some future scenario, I'm not in some past scenario, I'm right here. And it brings our brain from, you know, the amygdala area which is fight, flight, freeze, and it puts it back into our reasoning logical center of our brain, which then helps us to come back into that present moment.

Speaker 1: 14:43

And that's something that anybody can do at any time or anywhere, which is great, because you know you think about things that can calm you down. You don't you can do that from any any place at all, and easy enough to explain to our kids how to do it. So I think that's great. While we're here, though, throw in another one if you'll give us another technique, because that was. Those two were fantastic, and I'd love to get one more from you.

Speaker 2: 15:04

Yeah, sure. So let's do a breathing technique. There's one I like called square breathing or box breathing, and I teach this a little bit different. I think the typical way is that I've heard it taught is where Navy SEALs, for example, in training to be able to hold their breath or increase their lung capacity, would do four count breath in, four count, hold, four count, breath out, four count, hold. And so that's something super easy for you or your kids to do.

Speaker 2: 15:41

And I add one more piece to that. I say take a finger or your hand or whatever the case may be, and find a portion on your body. So because you can see me I mean your listeners may not be able to, but let's say I'm on my chest, and this is great for kids. Like they can do it under the desk on their leg when they're stressed out or during a presentation or something like that. They could just do it on the side of their leg. Nobody will know what they're doing.

Speaker 2: 16:11

So as they breathe in, they're drawing a line with their finger on another part of their body. As they hold, they're drawing a line horizontally with their finger. They exhale, draw that line down, hold, draw that line over. And when I have kids do this or have moms teach their kids this. What I do, what I say, is start with, you know, the square and move into rectangles, and the rectangles are going to be an emphasis on the exhale. So that's getting rid of all the carbon monoxide in our lungs and it's calming us down. And that little extra piece of like touching your own body is that connection to the present moment, that connection with your body, and it's sending all those awesome signals to your brain to like, okay, it's okay, you're here, nothing's going to happen and if it is, it won't be the end of the world anyway.

Speaker 1: 17:16

Yeah, yeah, I love that. You know like we teach them public speaking and debate to kids, and when they do this competitively or even when they're just learning right. Public speaking makes everybody nervous, but especially when they're doing this competitively.

Speaker 1: 17:29

that's such a fantastic tip to be able to ground yourself and be prepared to move on. So love it. I'll definitely be sharing those, for sure. So just one thing I found when I was looking through your different materials and all of that, there was one thing that really stood out to me and it said there was a whole page on one of your downloads and it said you don't need a good marriage to raise emotionally healthy kids. What does that mean?

Speaker 2: 17:56

So essentially it means that while the majority of statistics that are presented are that separation and divorce harms children, the fact of the matter is that if you have a destructive or a toxic relationship and you separate or divorce from that toxic relationship, it's actually better for your children, and there are plenty of statistics out there that you can find that point to that truth. Unfortunately, they're just not coming up in the media conversation things that we see online and the other. So that's one piece of it. The other piece is that I really focus on building community. So while I may work with a mom who has kiddos and she doesn't feel connected to anyone in her local community, I will connect her with an online community, and at this point I feel like we're in this post-COVID society where everyone sort of understands that you can connect online in a real and authentic way, but giving her that support. Then there are a whole bunch of people who love and support her and therefore are likely and it's almost always a given that they love and support her child or her children.

Speaker 2: 19:23

And what that means is, when we're talking now about preteens or teens, when they're like, yeah, my mom doesn't know anything, they have this whole circle of safe other adults that they can turn to, who will probably say the exact same thing as mom, and they will be more inclined to listen just because of the simple fact that it's not mom. And when we're talking about a destructive marriage or relationship, the fact of the matter is that it's not enough for just one safe parent to be telling their child the truth, because the toxic parent is going to be telling their version of the truth to the child as well, and it just becomes this game of who said what and what the child ends up finding plausible, which isn't good for anyone, whereas if you have an entire village or community behind you who's also speaking that truth to your child, they are much more likely to find safety and strength in those numbers and to actually absorb that truth.

Speaker 1: 20:25

Yeah, I completely agree with what you said about understanding now that virtual can be such a strong way to connect, and it is. You know, a lot of bad things came from COVID, but a lot of good things came from it as well, and I think that's one of them, because we all need a support system. It's just like if you were fighting cancer, you would want to connect with people who had the same type of cancer as you. Right For that support. So same exact thing, and it's not always easy to find in your neighborhood or your town. So that's amazing. Well, I have two more questions for you, but I know this is not a one size all like answer or question that can be answered that way. But if you are in the situation and you, how do you avoid getting into the he said, she said game with your kids and how do you communicate with your kids about these hard things that maybe the partner is saying or the situation itself?

Speaker 2: 21:22

Yeah, well, my absolute number one go to is use what they're watching on TV like, use movies, use TV shows, find the metaphors in everyday life, use the struggles that they're already having or the thoughts that they already have they being your kids and draw those lines of connection for them, leaving your partner or your ex partner completely out of the picture. Case in point the movie in Kanto is phenomenal for any mom who is going through this, because it really highlights the death of the dynamics without it being a mom-dad relationship, like there's grandma and then there's this hidden brother, and then there's the black sheep of the family and then there's the chosen ones. And so you can draw so many parallels from that movie that your children will be able to start thinking about if you reach into their world and say, well, hey, so do you really think that that Maribel felt, or Mirabel felt, this certain way? What do you think it felt like for her to want something so bad in her family and to be completely outside of it? And that is such a metaphor for what a woman can feel like when she wants a connection so badly with her partner and is outside of that. And that's the same dynamics that will likely come into play with the kiddos and so you're already sort of planting those seeds for them to observe different patterns in their life. So Disney movies, I think, are phenomenal, even the Lion King.

Speaker 2: 23:10

It's really interesting because recently I watched the animated version with my kids and then we watched the live action version, and the live action version kind of calls that dynamic out really obviously, whereas the animated version did not, and so we had those conversations. Something more recent would be like the Mario Brothers movie, okay. So there's like the Peaches song that is stuck in every eight, nine and 10 year olds head Like, okay, asking the question so do you really think that he loved Princess Peach when he was singing that song? And most kids will go, yeah, he loved her so much. Okay, but if you love someone, do you try and control them, do you hurt their friends? And it just starts them thinking down that path and they will ask more and more questions as they get older and they'll start to observe those patterns.

Speaker 2: 24:03

So I would say like that's kind of a long-winded answer, but that's number one. And number two is be completely open and vulnerable with your children about your emotions. You don't have to tell them all the gory details, but if you're sad, be sad and tell them that you're sad, because when you model having healthy emotions, then when they go back to destructive parents' house that who doesn't allow emotions they're going to understand. Oh, mom is safe. She lets me cry, even though I'm a boy. Dad is not. I have to hide my feelings from him. This is very strange and it just creates enough tension for them to ask more questions, make more observations, and you don't even have to mention their other parents at all.

Speaker 1: 24:58

Yeah, and because it's not about pitting them against the other person's van, you mean right, it's about breaking that cycle and making sure that they realize that that behavior is not normal and not okay. But in a look what your father did, or you know what I mean. That kind of thing that maybe we are tempted to say, but it certainly doesn't help the situation.

Speaker 2: 25:19

Yeah, and I would also say that there are moments to get a little closer to the truth and a little closer to who is telling the truth and who isn't. I had a recent conversation with my daughter and I had to come out and say, because she started the conversation with well, nathan, my brother, he doesn't. He tries not to cry when he gets yelled at at dad's house. And then they just shut up Like they were just locked down, and I was trying to casually, okay, well, what does that look like? Well, how come you feel like you have to do that and all of this sort of thing. And so it came to the point where I said you know, you can tell him that this hurts, or you can tell him that you don't like when he does that. And their typical response is well, can you tell him? And so at that moment I had a choice to make of I can either lie to them and say oh, yeah, sure, I'll tell him, when I have absolutely no intention of doing so. I can tell them, no, I'm not gonna tell him and not give them a reason, or I can go just a tiny step further, which is what I decided to do, and I said. You know, I really think that you need to learn how to stand up for yourself.

Speaker 2: 26:41

I would be happy to go with you when you tell your dad, but here are the reasons why I don't think it's a good idea for me to tell him.

Speaker 2: 26:50

Number one it's taking away your power to speak. What is your truth? And number two, I'm a little worried that if I tell him, one of two things is gonna happen Either he's gonna know that you told me and he's gonna get upset at you, or he may start to tell you some things that sound true but are not 100% truth. And I just left it at that because, at the end of the day, a lot of emotionally destructive individuals who you mentioned the term narcissist, so they're almost never diagnosed. But let's say that someone with narcissistic tendencies is not going to come right out necessarily and say well, your mom, x, y and Z, they're gonna say something in some twisted sort of way that really does sound like reality and it sounds like something the child wants to hear, but it isn't the complete truth. So I want to tell them that this is a pattern that can happen and you have power in standing up for yourself, whether it changes the situation or not.

Speaker 1: 28:01

Yeah, and that's so important that we want our kids to know in any situation that their voice matters, and sometimes that's the. I mean I can't imagine that's. I did not grow up in a divided family and so having those tough conversations with a parent is you know. I can't imagine how tough that is, but how important it is that if they learn that they can start there, then they can have those tough conversations with anybody. So, exactly, well, jess, I think this has been extremely helpful. Is there anything else that you want to share with the audience? Any last tips, words of advice, anything like that that you'd like to get out there?

Speaker 2: 28:39

Well, considering that you teach speech and debate and I'm going to assume that a lot of the people who are listening to this also have children who are in speech and debate I just want to highlight how important that can be to a child in this type of situation Because, like you said, having their voice be heard assumes the fact that they have a voice, and they do.

Speaker 2: 29:06

They absolutely do. I see too many situations where children are almost treated as property or not quite human until they reach adult status and graduate high school. But they do have a voice and they do have opinions about their life, and so creating that space for them to learn how to speak out and speak up for what they believe in, in this container of like, oh it's a course, or oh, it's a class, or oh, I'm going to compete, it's a game just really sets the stage for them to be able to do that in situations that are much more difficult. So I think I would recommend that for all parents who, regardless of their situation, but absolutely for parents who are in or who have been in a destructive relationship, I think that's a fantastic way to prepare your children.

Speaker 1: 30:01

Yeah, absolutely, and, like you said, to be able to say what they believe. And a lot of times, you know, in debate they're debating things that they don't believe in, right, they're assigned aside. But one of the great things about that is being able to speak about something passionately passionately, but not emotionally necessarily. Passionately is an emotion, right, but like being able to really stand for, like speak out about something in a controlled way. So absolutely.

Speaker 1: 30:30

It's such an important skill for all of us to have in life. So well, jess, I think what you're doing is amazing and you offer. You have the Warrior Mama group right and you do coaching as well. Is that right? I?

Speaker 2: 30:42

do? Yeah, I, there's a bunch of things that I do. I have a pod membership. I'm getting ready to launch a version of that. That's kind of like a tear down that's just going to be content only so all kinds of new regulation, tips and techniques and strategies for how to empower your children in this type of situation. Then there's the pod membership that also offers small group support in that. And then I do offer some slots of one on one coaching and tandem coaching, which is working parallel with a parent and their child, not in the same session but working together for the child's good, with that sort of firewall, if you will, of confidentiality between that.

Speaker 1: 31:30

That's fantastic. So make sure we link to all of that. We'll have all the links for all of that in the show notes. And tell us really quick you do have a free beat that people can go check out. Tell us just really quickly what can they find on your website if they're looking for a little bit more information but aren't ready to sign up for something yet.

Speaker 2: 31:46

Yeah, absolutely so. It's mosaicmotherhoodcom. Forward slash for the number four written out keys, four dash keys, and that's four keys for raising emotionally resilient kids and there are a couple of other regulation techniques in there. It goes through a little bit more detail about what's going on in our brain when our brain is triggered and then it has a few links to like our free support group and other things.

Speaker 1: 32:12

Fantastic, and I was looking at that earlier today helpful for parents in any stage and regardless of your relationship status. So definitely go check that out, at the very least. But also, you'll have all the links to connect with Jess and her groups if you're interested in that and need that support system, because we all need support systems for sure. So well, thank you again, jess. We really appreciate your time and all your insight. This was hugely helpful. Thank you, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 32:37

Thank you.