Speaker 1: 0:36

Welcome back to Speak Out Standout. I'm Elizabeth Green and today's guest is Ms Devin. Ms Devin is a video game teacher on out school. You may be thinking what is a video game teacher? We're going to talk about that, but the more important thing that we're here to talk about today is how video games, although they may get a bad rap sometimes, can actually have some really strong benefits for our kids, especially when it comes to what we're focused on here, and that's building communication skills and confidence. So, ms Devin, thanks for taking your time to be here, and I can't call you Ms Devin the whole time. I will now, but like now, you're just Devin.

Speaker 2: 1:09

That's fine, you know we can keep it informal. I'll call you Elizabeth. I'm doing great. You know, just I'm here with my dog we were just talking about dogs before we came on and you know, hanging out with Bowser, that's my dog's name, so you can see video games run deep through my soul.

Speaker 1: 1:24

Bowser is one of the only super Mario Brothers right. Obviously that's where that's from, one of the only games that I can beat, and my kids think it's really interesting because I can't even make a player move on their Xbox. But I can take down Bowser any day, any time, so I love it.

Speaker 2: 1:40

I love it. That makes me so happy.

Speaker 1: 1:44

So let's start, though, for people who are not familiar, and in case you've never heard of Out School. Out School is an online marketplace for classes for kids, so you can take classes on there for anything at all from braiding hair to drawing dragons, to playing video games, to English anything at all, right. And so you have a really cool niche on Out School Devin, where you play video games all day, right? Tell us just a little bit about that.

Speaker 2: 2:09

So it's interesting because it didn't start out as playing video games. I got my degree in English and creative writing, and something that I've always loved about video games is the storytelling aspect, and so when I initially started teaching on Out School, I was actually doing a Zelda storytelling class where we would creatively write, you know, for five weeks and create our own you know virtual video game, basically on paper, and then that slowly evolved into. My students were asking me like I need help with this level, I can't do this, how do I do this? And I was like well, you know, I'll make a class and we'll see if anyone comes and we'll play video games together.

Speaker 2: 2:41

And the response from parents has been incredible, because what a lot of parents don't realize is that when your child has a hobby and they don't have anywhere to do that hobby, they feel like it's not something that they should be doing. Right, we have things like volleyball clubs, book clubs, chess clubs, but schools don't have after school video game clubs, and so kids come to my classes and they get to, you know, log in virtually, and all of a sudden there's this community of people who are as passionate about it as they are, and I've had so many parents tell me like my kid has better you know communication. Social anxiety is down. Their personal stresses are down because they feel like they are accepted in this community. So I'm really excited to talk about how video games do that Because, like you said, most people don't think about video games in that way.

Speaker 1: 3:27

Right, we often hear, you know, we think about video games being a drain on the brain and, like you said, and not a social avenue to go down. Or we think about, well, now people can play video games and they can talk with people through the games and we think strange or danger. Right, like I think as a parent, video games usually, when that comes to mind, it's the negatives instead of the positives. But you're saying, for those of us myself included have kids who love to play video games, that we maybe need to change our mindset about this. And it's not just a way to waste time. I like that you used a word. It's a hobby, it's something they're passionate about, and what we really want to know is how this can benefit them.

Speaker 2: 4:11

So, exactly, exactly Because that's so true, yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 1: 4:14

No, I was good. So you said that you see kids and parents come to you and say that their kids have built their communication skills and they're more self confident. How is that happening? Just by, you know, playing Mario Kart.

Speaker 2: 4:27

So what's something that you love, Elizabeth? Tell me something that you love, that you're passionate about, a hobby, something you like to do gardening or writing or, I don't know, painting your fingernails something that you really love to do.

Speaker 1: 4:38

You know, honestly, I think that's the hardest question to ask a mom, do we?

Speaker 2: 4:43

have hobbies Not usually, but here's one. You're a mom, right, so let's talk about that. As moms, I think a lot of us can relate with that feeling of feeling alone and isolated. I'm doing this by myself. Am I doing this right? Is this the right? What am I? What you know, we feel this isolated island. I'm also a mom. I have four daughters, so I know these feelings right Very intimately and we naturally look for a mom group. We look for other moms that are like-minded, or other moms who can help us with things when we're not sure, like, what to do when our, our child keeps wetting the bed, or maybe not sure what to do when our teenager talks back, and so we find that community and in that community we find confidence, because more often than not it's like, hey, I'm actually doing a pretty good job as a mom, right, I'm doing all right.

Speaker 2: 5:26

And so with games, it's very much the same. One of the reasons that games have such a negative connotation is because it's a, you know, a person alone in the dark, isolated. It's the isolation that the big problem is right. And so with classes like these, what's happening is the kids come to class and now they have that community. They have that group of moms for our metaphor here where they're like oh, it's okay for me to know every single Pokemon, it's okay for me to, like, understand this very specific mechanic about this game. But as they come to class, also, the beautiful thing about a social club is, since they aren't alone, they have to learn how to develop those communication skills. So I'll give you an example of my Minecraft class.

Speaker 2: 6:07

We just started a new survival world and anyone who doesn't know anything about Minecraft, here's your crash course to survival. You land in a world and don't die and you have to build a base. There's monsters coming, you've got to build tools, but you literally have nothing right. So you're progressing through civilization, through the Stone Age, into the Industrial Revolution, all that kind of stuff. And so I have this group of seven students and they all come and they're like let's go. And I'm like, all right, let's go. How are we going to survive? The monsters are coming tonight and they're like, oh, I don't know, how are we going to survive? And so I'm like, well, who wants to make a house? And then someone says, oh, I want to make a house.

Speaker 2: 6:42

And I said, okay, well, if student one is going to make a house. Who's going to bring wood to student one so that he can make the house. Student who's like oh, I'll make a house. And then student three is like man, these tools are awful, we need better tools. I'm going to go to the mines and get a better tool for us. I'm like awesome, you go to the mines, get a better tool. Then I have a student who's like I'm not afraid of monsters, I'll be the guard. And so they have to communicate, because if they don't, what's going to happen? As a monster is going to come, we're all going to die. That will be like Well, that was really sad. Now we got to start over right, and so those communication skills are so crucial in so many games like that.

Speaker 1: 7:16

Communication and collaboration. It seems like Like it's not just you playing this game on your own, You're the only person impacted by it. That is a really cool thing about video games today and, like I said earlier, obviously we think stranger danger or kids can talk to people we don't know on there, and that's obviously a concern and something we need to be aware of as parents. But one of the beautiful things about if it's done safely, like in a controlled environment like a class like yours, they can connect with other kids around the world right.

Speaker 2: 7:46

Yeah, and they love it. And yeah, you're absolutely right. You really have to be aware of that stranger danger, because it is real, right, there's no question about it, and there are some games that are more friendly than others. Right, and so, as a parent, one of my recommendations to parents is just do a little bit of homework. Does the game your child is playing have live chat? Is it text chat? A lot of games you can turn that off. A lot of games.

Speaker 2: 8:08

This is why I love the switch. Most games on the switch don't even have a voice chat option. There's no way to talk with other people, and so I'm happy letting my daughter play on it. But as parents, it's a really easy thing to just quickly go online and Google, like, can my child voice chat on Minecraft? And you can't. You can't voice chat on Minecraft. There's, you know, chat, text chat. But then if you go on and it's like, okay, can my child voice chat on Fortnite? Yes, they can, but you can also turn it off. And so there's that stranger danger is avoidable, and it's our job as parents to at least be a little bit educated about it. And if you don't know where to start as a parent, that's where I come in as a resource. Also, send me a message on out school Is this a good game for my child, or how can I help my child with this game, because that's also a big one? So yes, I completely agree with the stranger danger. We got to be vigilant, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1: 8:56

And so I guess I didn't realize too that on Minecraft you can't read that. You said there's the text chat, but you can't actually speak to each other. So in class it's different, because you all are meeting in a Zoom room so they can actually communicate verbally with each other while they're playing.

Speaker 2: 9:12

Yes, Yep, and that's the difference. Without school, we're in a private Zoom class where only the students that are enrolled in the class are allowed to come, only children are allowed to come. So it's a very safe space for kids and we never use, like the voice chat on other games or anything like that. We're all in this little, this little bubble, our own little bubble right, and it's great. It's a wonderful little bubble. I love it.

Speaker 1: 9:33

What a fantastic way, though, to really like to let our kids do something that they're passionate about with people in a safe space, right, and obviously the the, the skills that they are learning let's talk a little bit more about. You gave some examples of communication and confidence and collaboration, but you've also mentioned to me before that kids in your classes learn like and grow their storytelling skills, things like that Like how does that work?

Speaker 2: 9:59

So the amazing thing about video games is it is a story that you are writing actively. You are, you are living out the story as the main character. So if you take we I love to compare books, movies and and video games, because they all have the same medium of storytelling but they all do it in a very different way. Right, in a movie or in a, in a movie or a TV show, you're watching the action unfold. Right, you can see it very visually, you can hear it. It's a very auditory and visual experience. With a book, it's very much an imagination experience because you're reading it and you have to imagine what's happening, whereas with video games it's a little bit of both, because you are building the story as you go, like I said with Minecraft, but I'll give a better example. I mean, minecraft is an open world game, so story building is a little different, but you can tell a story through architecture. In Minecraft, you can be like I want to build, you know Roman architecture, I want to build a cottage, you know.

Speaker 2: 10:52

But there's a game that I really love called Zelda. If any of the moms out there love Zelda or Pokemon, these are both what are called RPGs, which are role-playing games, and you start the world and it's like hi, I am the hero, I am Link, and you have to figure out how to save the princess, princess Zelda. You don't have any information. You got to go around and talk to people and while you're doing this, people are giving you quests. They're like, hey, I lost my chicken, Can you go get my chicken for me? And you go off and you go fight the monster to get the chicken. You bring the chicken back. They're like great, I love the chicken. Thank you very much, you know. And so you're building this story as you go, because a lot of people don't realize the depth of character development and plot development in these stories.

Speaker 2: 11:34

A game like Zelda has several cutscenes that tell you what has happened in the past, that has led to today and what is going to happen in the future should you fail. And so the storytelling is in so many different layers and a lot of games give you very much a choose your own adventure. Like I can choose never to save the princess if I don't want to. I could just go be Link on the beach and, just you know, hang out there and save chickens all day if I want to. But that's what's so cool is you can develop these stories and these worlds all in a game. Like that is the coolest part about it. I just I love it so much. I love storytelling in games.

Speaker 1: 12:10

And that's amazing. Honestly, that's something I'd never thought about when it comes to video games, and it also you're describing a lot of problem solving to yes, yes, critical thinking and problem solving is so important in video games.

Speaker 2: 12:25

Zelda is a great example. You walk into a room and it's like OK, you need to achieve X wires, that you need to get a key. Ok, it says the key is on that side of the room and you have these 15 obstacles to get through and all you have is a stick Get through the obstacles. And so you have to stop. You're like OK, what are my surroundings? What other resources do I have? Can I climb that? I can't climb it. Oh, but I can swim under it.

Speaker 2: 12:48

And so you're thinking on a lot of different levels. Same with, like Pokemon. A lot of people don't realize how much math is in Pokemon and strategy, because you see it and you're like, oh, it's these cute little, these little creatures which I love. But when you go into a battle, it's like OK, how strong is my Pokemon? How much damage can I do to the other Pokemon? And if I do this, am I going to survive this battle or is my Pokemon going to be knocked out? And so the critical thinking is such an important part in any kind of video game, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 13:17

And that was actually you led me right to my next question. Does do these? Obviously every game is going to be different and the skills learned from these games is not going to be the same across the board. But I mean, are we just saying in general, though, like pretty much all video games do have good qualities and things they teach our kids, or there's some that are just like you're not going to learn anything from that?

Speaker 2: 13:38

Every single video game has something that is going to teach your children. One I will. I will die on that hill because, again, a video game is just a big puzzle. It really. Whatever the video game, you know Minecraft, like I said it is. How are you going to survive the night with Zelda? It's. How are you going to save the princess with Pokemon? It's. How are you going to become the Pokemon master?

Speaker 2: 13:58

You can even look at really silly games, like there's a game called Untitled Goose Game. All you are is a goose causing chaos. That is the entire point of the game, and on surface level, you're like well, that's a pointless game. But when you start to play it, you realize you're like OK, my goal is this goose is. I need to get the farmers boot into the mud. But in order to get his boot into the mud, he needs to not be watching me, which means I need to go and make a distraction over there, and then, while he's distracted, I'll get the boot and I'll pull it in the mud and then I'll win. Right, I'll get the prize or whatever it is. And so, even silly games like that, there is so much problem solving involved. It's really astonishing, honestly.

Speaker 1: 14:36

Yeah, it is. I mean, you're kind of blowing my mind in thinking about that and thinking about some games that my kids play that I have viewed as honestly a waste of time, right, a waste of mental energy or whatever, but it's really that's not the case, depending on how we want to look at it. So, oh my goodness, speaking of mental energy, my next question just flew out of my head. It literally just flew out of my head.

Speaker 2: 15:00

You're fine. While you're thinking of it, I'll give you another really good example of how games are really helping our children with their very, very tangible education. You know those core courses like English and math and such. So most games don't have any audio to them, it is all subtitles. And so you think about a game like Pokemon? There are no voice actors, the only. There's nothing like at all, absolutely nothing.

Speaker 2: 15:22

And so as a character, you come in and it's all text and you have to read the text and it's very quickly becomes a life or death kind of feeling, because you have a Pokemon in a battle. You have one move that's Thunder Shock and one move that's Thunder Wave. You know Thunder Shock is going to kill the Pokemon and you know Thunder Wave is not, you know. And so you kind of have to, like kids very quickly, learn okay, that has an S and an SH, that's a sh, that's Thunder Shock. Or this one has a what that's wave? Okay, I want Thunder Shock.

Speaker 2: 15:50

Because, I'll tell you this, as a child I played Pokemon when I was like eight years old and, yeah, I could read by then, but I wasn't great at it, you know. But very quickly, when I was playing Pokemon, I got very good at reading and then I put those into real life practice. Now, all of a sudden, I saw Thunder Wave, saw that W, and now when I'm reading a book and I see the W, I'm like, oh, that's the same one, but in a game the stakes are higher, right, it's like if I don't win I'm dead. So that's a very tangible way for kids to get better at reading is by playing video games.

Speaker 1: 16:22

And it's interesting because we know, as teachers in any education field, we know that kids learn better if it's something that they're interested in, and so having a kid sit down and read a book about a subject that they're not really interested in, versus reading something like you said, and in a situation where it's a little bit more high stakes, it's a little bit more energetic and everything you can definitely see the benefits. So you reminded me of what I was going to ask you about and this is another thing that we've been talking about a lot in the education world and the importance of, or the value of, gamification in classes and in education. And, if you've not heard this before, it's just the idea of turning learning into some sort of game, because what kid doesn't want to play a game, right?

Speaker 2: 17:04

And if we flip education right?

Speaker 1: 17:07

Exactly right, the way that we present the same exact information. It's all in the way it's presented as to whether or not the kid's going to absorb it, enjoy it, want to do more of it, and so when you're tying these things into something that is their favorite hobby anyways, it seems like this is a win-win.

Speaker 2: 17:25

Absolutely. And so I also, before I was teaching mostly social clubs, I taught Spanish classes on out school and I did Pokemon Spanish classes and we would do things like you know, pikachu as a soul instead of like the banana is yellow, we'd say Pikachu is yellow. It's the exact same thing, but kids see a picture of Pikachu and they're like Pikachu is Pikachu is a Mario, he's a Mario mom. This is the color. The Pikachu, it's exciting, right. Whereas if it's like a banana, they're like that's a banana, whatever, right.

Speaker 2: 17:54

And so what a lot of people will do too, as they are learning languages, is they will put their favorite games into that foreign language. So a game like Zelda does have voice acting, and I have a good friend who speaks Japanese and she loves having it in Japanese so that when they're speaking together she can hear the Japanese and everything like that, and all the text is in English, but the story part is in Japanese. And so there really are like gamification is huge and we see it even, like I said, as adults when we look at different things. We try and find fun ways to do chores right, or fun ways to do this boring thing. That's really all gamification is yeah.

Speaker 1: 18:32

That's amazing. Well, you've talked about like a lot of different qualities. Did we miss anything, anything else? I mean, honestly, you're really changing my mindset on video games. I knew my kids are going to be ecstatic about that, but did we miss any other benefits that you feel like our kids are absorbing and we maybe just aren't aware of?

Speaker 2: 18:50

I think the biggest one. You know, and we've touched on this, but I do want to reiterate it because it's so important. You know, I will tell you as when I was younger, I was the only person in my family who played video games. Right, my parents were fine with it, like they let me play and it wasn't a big deal, but I was alone in my video game love. Okay, I was alone.

Speaker 2: 19:07

And so as I got older and I found people who like to play video games, it was very hard for me to be like open about how much I love video games.

Speaker 2: 19:15

I would always temper it down a little bit, right, not get too excited about it, and I think we've all felt that about different things.

Speaker 2: 19:20

So it's like, yeah, oh yeah, I know a little bit about Pokemon, not a lot, right, because I was worried about how people would judge me. And so, as a child, I think it is just so important to foster that because, like I said, the self confidence that someone feels when it's like an, especially when adult validates it you know, that's what a lot of my students parents have told me is they're like having you validate this interest in my child and giving them a role model makes them feel like it's okay to like it, which it is. It is okay to like it, but it does need to be done in the right way, like we've talked about safety from strangers, building that community, all of those different things you do have to be aware of as an adult with children, but there's just so much good that can come from games and my goal really is to help people understand that the games are not the enemy. It's really not. They are such an amazing tool and they're just great. I love them.

Speaker 1: 20:12

And I just and I wanted to reiterate and add on to what you just said about having another adult outside of your family really compliment and boost confidence in your kid and something that they enjoy.

Speaker 1: 20:22

That is one of the huge things that we see in our classes to you know, we teach public speaking and debate, and all they want and all they all it takes really for them to walk out of there with a huge difference in their face is feeling like they're listened to by, especially by another adult, you know, and validated in their thoughts, and so I was just going to throw up just a little tip two on the communication side.

Speaker 1: 20:45

This is something that I need to keep in mind more If you want to foster communication skills in your kids at home. It involves asking questions, giving them opportunities to answer questions, and if they're all into Pokémon and you don't know anything about it, like me, ask them to explain it to you, because the more they do, the better they're going to get at communicating and explaining it, the more you're going to understand so you can actually have conversations with them about it. But one of the hardest ways to communicate is to teach somebody something they have no idea what it is about, and especially when we're using names like Pikachu. So encouraging your children to, I mean ask them questions and then sometimes you know, if you're not interested in it, that's okay, but at least pretend right, ask questions and then listen to what they say Give them a chance at it.

Speaker 2: 21:30

Like my daughter, you know she's a gamer, she's 10. And all weekend she's like Mom, will you play Fortnite with me? Mom, will you play Fortnite with me? I've never played Fortnite, I'm not good at Fortnite. So I was kind of like, all right, here we go, we're going to play Fortnite. And her attitude the entire day changed.

Speaker 2: 21:47

So also, yeah, ask your kids questions, let them ask you questions. Sit down, if you can play with them, like you said, elizabeth, play Mario with them, play Zelda not all games you can. You know it's one player, but let them teach you about their passion and they just will light up. I was shocked because me and my daughter play video games all the time, but usually I picked the video game, but she was like I really want to play Fortnite. I was like, okay, here we go. And we played for hours together, just me and her, just me and her. And then afterwards she was just on cloud nine because she had gotten to share that with me and it changed her whole attitude. So, yes, absolutely Ask your kids questions about Pokemon or Zelda or Minecraft, and even if you don't understand it, it's okay, it's all right. Then sit down and say show me what you were talking about. What's a creeper? Oh, that creeper just exploded your base, and then you get to connect with your child on a different level also.

Speaker 1: 22:37

Yeah, I love it.

Speaker 1: 22:38

And, devin, it's clear you are so passionate about this and such an amazing I know on a personal level we've discussed this too like how cool it is that you have a career of playing video games, right, like that's like every kid's dream, right To grow up and like live off of a livelihood of playing video games.

Speaker 1: 22:54

Kids all over want to be able to do this and you've done it. But it's very clear that it's your passion, and not just the games, obviously, but the kids so absolutely Love that. You're making a big difference and thank you for shedding some light into this world because, like I said, hopefully me myself, if it's just me I have definitely learned a lot and puts video games, like I said, in a different light. So, and before we go though I know you said stranger danger is real, right, being aware do you have any other tips or things that you recommend to parents before just saying, oh yeah, you can play that game, you can play that, you can play whatever, just buying consoles? Do you have any other tips for making sure we're doing it in a way that is protecting and benefiting our kids with the things we've talked about?

Speaker 2: 23:38

My first tip is when your child has a new game, have them take the headphones off. As parents, sometimes it's nice for them to put the headphones on and just let them play and have some quiet in our house, right. But when it's a new game, take the headphones off and listen to what's happening, because some communities are naturally more adults and they have more adult speech, whereas other ones are more child friendly and have more children playing. But that doesn't mean just because more children are playing it's safe or that your child won't be hearing foul language or be cyberbullied or anything like that. So that's my first tip is have your kid oh, take the headphones off at least the first couple of times they play, so that you can listen in.

Speaker 2: 24:21

My second tip is do a little bit of research, right. Look into it, say you know, put in the game that you're curious about and see what other parents are saying about it. But, more importantly, see what other gamers are saying about it and other gamers in the community. And it's real easy if you just Google it. Write it as a great resource for gamers, right? So that would be my second one.

Speaker 2: 24:42

Another one is a very popular app for gamers to use is called Discord, and it's amazing because you can connect with people and talk to people, but it is a private space, and so if your child is on Discord I think a lot of a lot of teens are on Discord, because that's how you create, like the virtual Zoom room that I'm talking about. If you're not in a video game class, you can go and Discord and create that. So check out those communities on your child's Discord. Make sure that there's not anything happening there that is unsafe. Also. Those are my main suggestions, though. But just being aware, educate yourself a little bit, because just because you don't know about video games, just because you don't understand what's happening in a video game, you can understand what's happening in a community as a parent, and I think that's the biggest thing that we can do.

Speaker 1: 25:28

Absolutely Well, fantastic advice. And Devin again, tell everybody. I know you've mentioned a couple of the games that you offer throughout school, but you offer lots of different video games. That pretty much any interest, right? Tell us a little bit more about where we can find you if anybody's interested in checking out your classes.

Speaker 2: 25:45

Yeah, absolutely so. Outschoolcom. And then if you type in Ms Devin, M-I-S-S-D-E-V-Y-N, you'll find Ms Devin's Video Game Universe. That's our company and it's me and my group of teachers who are all as passionate about games as I am. They have all played games their whole live, long lives, just like I have. And we have everything, Like we seriously have all of the games. And if we don't have it, let us know and we will add it, because I can almost guarantee one of my teachers loves that game and if not, I will find someone who does. But yeah, outschool Ms Devin. I'm not hard to find Devin with a Y. That's the tricky part. You got to get the Y in there.

Speaker 1: 26:21

Awesome. Well, we will make sure we link to that in the show notes right below so you can certainly go check out Ms Devin and all the classes that she has to offer. Again, thank you for your insight, sharing your passion with us. This was a great conversation and I am sure you're going to get some interest in what you have to offer and hopefully some parents like me change your mindset a little bit about the idea of video games.

Speaker 2: 26:42

Absolutely Thanks for having me. It was awesome.