Speaker 1: 0:35

Welcome back to Speak Out Stand Out. I'm Elizabeth Green, and today's guest is Dr Tina Shermer Sellers. Dr Tina is a licensed sex and gender feminist, psychotherapist, bestselling author, professor and media personality, and her latest book is called Shameless Parenting Everything you Need to Raise Shame-Free, confident Kids and Heal your Shame Too, and so that's what we're kind of focused on today. You know, here at Speak Out Stand Out, we talk about ways to build confidence and communication skills in our kids, and one of the last things I think that most of us want to really talk about with our kids is sex, and that's what we're here to talk about today. Dr Tina, thanks for being here with us, first and foremost.

Speaker 2: 1:18

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm so glad to be here.

Speaker 1: 1:21

So you know, I don't know what it was like when you were growing up, but I feel like the topic of sex growing up was either you were sat down and had the birds and the bees conversation or it was just kind of avoided. And it seems like we're hearing and obviously your profession is geared towards helping us stop avoiding those conversations. And is that important first of all, and why?

Speaker 2: 1:44

Yeah, it's absolutely important. I want to kind of compare it to can you imagine being, I don't know hesitant to talk about health and wellness with your kids and avoiding it? Avoiding what you would say to a two-year-old, avoiding what you'd say to a four-year-old? You wouldn't say anything when they're putting sand in their mouth. You wouldn't say anything when they're wanting to eat candy all the time. You wouldn't say anything about looking both ways before you cross the street. It just felt too uncomfortable and so you didn't say anything at all until they're about ready to drive a car. And then you get really scared and you're like, okay, we got to talk about it, you got to sit down and you got to listen and you give this one 100 minute painful conversation when they're in an age where listening like that really is difficult for them developmentally, like they are really wanting to listen to themselves, listen to their peer group, and the download you need to have done, you need to have done before the age of 13. I mean really like of most things, like what safety is, what health and wellness is, what kindness is, what I mean, just a whole lot of things. But you didn't because you were afraid to, because that's how your parents were and your grandparents were and everyone else. You know, right. But if you think about the role that sexuality plays in our life, it usually is about creating connection and pleasure with somebody that you care about, as well as having a good relationship with connection and pleasure for yourself, right, how you appreciate connection and pleasure in your own life, connection to yourself. You know yourself, you care about yourself, you love yourself, right, and you appreciate the beauty and pleasure that's in the world. You appreciate that you're grateful for a body that allows you to take it in on all five senses, right. So that's in the world. You appreciate that You're grateful for a body that allows you to take it in on all five senses, right. So that's what sexuality is in its fullest sense. It's a relational intelligence, it's an emotional intelligence, it's a social intelligence and it's a body intelligence, right.

Speaker 2: 3:55

And we need to be teaching what is age appropriate, from the time they find their genitals, which is usually about 11 months old, and they're getting their diaper changed, right, or they're in the tub from there all the way forward. So what are 11 month old, 12 month old, 18 month old kids doing there? They've got people in their life labeling their world. You know head, shoulders, knees and toes right, knees and toes, knees and toes. We're that's a car, that's a cat, that's a dog right when they find their genitals, they need somebody there saying, yeah, that's your penis, it's a fabulous part of your body, or yep, that's your vulva, it's a fabulous part of your body. Let's finish diapering you. Let's finish drying you off whatever it is, and you give them developmentally what they need.

Speaker 2: 4:38

That includes things like body autonomy. Who's in charge of your body? Can anybody touch your body? Do you get to say who touches your body? What about other people? Do they get to be in charge of their body? Do you get to do whatever you want to their body?

Speaker 2: 4:55

You're teaching about autonomy. You're teaching about consent choice you have choice, they have choice. We learn to respect each other's choices. If you're ever uncomfortable, you come to me or let's talk about the safe people in your life that you could come to If anybody older or bigger or more threatening doesn't listen to you and what your choice is about you and your body doesn't listen to you and what your choice is about you and your body. Right, you're giving these things at age appropriate ways. You know the five and six year old that are curious about each other's bodies. Right, you're giving them what they need there, you know, and all the way along.

Speaker 2: 5:32

But because we didn't get that, most people less than 5% of people in the U? S did not get that. Then what they do inside themselves as they go, when they get walked in on, or when their child finds their genitals, or when they walk in on their kids examining each other or whatever, they go like this and I'm always saying, honey, that's just the shame you acquired from people who loved you very much but didn't know how to give this to you. Put your hand on your heart and tell yourself you're okay. That's just shame and you've got some learning to do to rewrite the legacy. So you don't pass on the legacy of shame. You pass on the legacy of knowledge. You know this is your body. All parts of your body are great Elbows, noses, vulvas, genitals, all of it. But they all have different like purposes and they need to be cared for differently and we're going to teach you about it along the way. And some parts we call more private because they're kind of special to us, and so you get to be in charge of those, just like you get to be in charge of anybody who grabs your nose, you're going to be in charge of that too, all parts of your body. So we are teaching all of those things. And most parents go okay, I know what I don't want to do, because I don't want to do what was done to me, but I don't know what to do. And that's how Shameless Parenting.

Speaker 2: 6:51

The book got written. I'm like don't worry, I've been teaching this to physicians and therapists for 30 years. I will write a book that goes birth to two, two to four, four to six, all the way up to 18. Each section is going to say here's what, emotionally, kids are, the tasks they're trying to accomplish developmentally. Here's the behavioral things they're often doing. Here's the body curiosities they often are having. How does that when they start to do that? How does that feel when you imagine that? And if you feel that inside of you, okay, I just want you to love up on yourself and then know that you've got some learning to do this. And then I tell you this is what they need from you, and I give exactly what that is. And then I'm like here are the top books for kids at that age and the top books for parents at that age and the top websites.

Speaker 2: 7:44

And I say to parents you only need to be two years ahead of your kid. So get to where they are now, read up to where they are now, get all those books, cause, if you like, if you've got teenagers, I tell people, go to the library and get the kid books, get them all and leave them around the house and be like I'm learning things. Just say to them I'm learning things. I realized I didn't know when you were little. So I'm getting the books and reading them and I'd love for you to read these too. They're kid books.

Speaker 2: 8:12

But there's things that we didn't talk about. I think enough, and I wish we did, but I didn't know. So you know I'm always doing the best I can. So you know, here they are, and then get yourself caught up and then if there are things you need to address, then I'm like, if you've got teenagers, then say to them okay, there's something I need to talk to you about.

Speaker 2: 8:31

It feels really important, but it's going to be uncomfortable, so I'm going to try to do it in 60 seconds or less.

Speaker 2: 8:37

So we're both going to take a big breath and then I'm going to go like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, because I do want you to hear it from me and not just from your friends. Okay, cause I love you, we're going to both live through this, and you just call it for what it is and you just do it. You know what I've heard from people who are older, like in their twenties and thirties and on. You're like my parent did that for me and even though it was uncomfortable and I rolled my eyes the entire time, I'm really glad they did. Yeah, so, um, so, literally I'm going to hold your hand all the way through it and just make it really easy for you. And then what's the most exciting thing about this is that you can change the legacy in one generation, like, literally, by doing it different with your own kids. Even late, doing it different, you will, if you're fortunate enough, watch them do it different with theirs. Yeah, yeah, and that is worth it for sure, right?

Speaker 1: 9:32

Because I mean, no matter how old your kids are I feel like every parent is probably already you know you focus on the things. Oh, I wish I would have done this differently when they were little, even if they're babies, you know. I wish I would have done this differently last week, so to be able to learn, you know and change and then see them, you know, take the good parts of our parenting. But I hear that what you said about having it broken down by like here's what to expect, here's what to do, I mean, how amazing would it be if we had that for every aspect of parenting. But that's gotta be so important for this aspect. That seems so difficult.

Speaker 1: 10:05

And my, my kids are 11 and 15 now and, um, and I will say we have really not. Well, my husband's a PE teacher and a health teacher, so he has to actually have the conversation with public school kids, so he's kind of in charge of having that conversation, as it needs to, with my kids. But I remember when my oldest he was probably six, he walked in and just out of the blue he said what's sex?

Speaker 1: 10:27

And my reaction was I don't know, that's what I told him, because I was so unprepared. It was out of the blue, so unprepared. And like you said, I just kind of froze because I I hadn't considered that I'm going to need to answer these questions ever at that point you know, right, and probably no one did that for you at six, you know, like when you asked the question or whatever, there wasn't somebody.

Speaker 2: 10:54

Go well, what a great question. And it's such a great question, but I don't know exactly what you're wanting to know. So can you tell me what you want to know exactly, cause I don't want to like it can be a complicated subject, I don't want to go into all of it. What do you want? Well, I mean, my friend, so-and-so, said that they went to the zoo one day and then their mom, who had this big belly, came home with the baby and that they had just gotten it, you know, from us, from the hospital, and it didn't make a lot of sense to me. So I just thought I got to ask my mom you know, you got it.

Speaker 2: 11:23

You find out from them. What is it they're really wanting to know? So you want to know where, where they come from. Like, where do they come from? From the body, or does that make sense? I'll just give you the little answer and then, if you want more, you just tell me what more you want, and so that way we're just giving them just what they want, because if we go on too long, they're going to glass over and go off and play Right. So we just give them what they want and what's, and they are the ones that know what's developmentally appropriate for them. They'll tell you, you know like.

Speaker 1: 11:51

I just want this yeah, letting them guide the conversation. Yeah, like in that instance we didn't have to sit down and have the full discussion.

Speaker 2: 11:58

No, but I could have answered his question in some way.

Speaker 2: 12:01

Yeah, absolutely. And six is right on. I mean, that is right when they're like starting to ask the question, you know, and, and so you. But you do want to know exactly what they want to, what they are wanting to understand about it. You know, and the that question, or the, the answer to the question you're asking, like, what exactly do you want to know? You'll see, we'll get more complex as they get older. Well, I just don't understand how the baby gets in there to begin with. Okay, so you want to know how it even starts to grow? Well, then, let's get out a book and I'll explain all that part.

Speaker 2: 12:33

You know, and and so you can kind of you know, get they're the ones that will tell you what more they need to make it fit their real questions you know as they're going, yeah, but there's a lot of other things that we want to be teaching along the way and a lot of it is when we think of, like kindergarten to third grade or so, social, like aid. It's really a lot of emotional and relational intelligence. You know, skills, mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: 13:00

Well, and I think that you know it's so easy to avoid, you know, uncomfortable conversations, but now that we're having this conversation, I'm thinking about how, you know, I want my kids to know that they can ask me anything about anything, and especially if they're ever in a situation that they don't understand or aren't comfortable with that they could come. Understand or aren't comfortable with that, they could come and talk to us about that. So what do you say, though I mean, to those like me who my kids are 11 and 15, we've not had this conversation. I'm sure my kids know, but we haven't had the conversation. But what do you say to somebody who has not broached this subject at all? How do we do that?

Speaker 2: 13:39

Yeah, I mean honestly, I would get the Shameless Parenting book and for anybody that works with kids, there's a way you can get them as handouts birth to two, two to four. If you're like, yeah, I'm working only with junior high kids, you can go on my website and there's a shop and you can get just the handouts, if that makes life easier for you. But really it's, I don't know. I just think you need to try to. I would, I would say, own first. You know what I'm realizing after reading some of this stuff that I haven't covered a lot of things with you, and my hunch is you're getting it at school Like you're hearing it from your friends. I just want you to know that, when it comes to things like having to do with how people treat each other, how people touch each other, how people touch each other, things around sexuality, things around what you're attracted to, identity, like how you identify as a person Do you identify as a girly girl, or all of that stuff that's stuff that we can talk about too, because there's a lot of information out there in the world that your friends might be getting from social media and other places that might not be accurate, and what I want to give you is the actual knowledge, so that you know when you're talking to people oh, that's true or you know.

Speaker 2: 15:06

I don't think that's true, and you can always come back and ask me, and if I don't know, honestly, I will look it up with you. You know, but I want you to feel equipped, because there are ways in which we exploit people, because we want them to go, buy things or do things or whatever. Right, and some of that is actually not you're. You're going to want to know that somebody is trying to take advantage of you, so that you can be able to say inside yourself I don't want that, I'm going to distance myself from this situation or from this person. Um, and so you've got my opinion and you've got to be talking about how exploitation happens, how people will lie to get what they want from you. I mean, we run our economy on that, yeah, right, we want you to feel bad about whatever you're wearing, looking whatever, so that you buy more things. Well, we're actually teaching people that we can do that we can exploit for our own purposes.

Speaker 2: 16:07

That's what we're teaching and so kids in their immaturity you know, not having enough life experience quite yet will do that to each other. But we want our children to be like that doesn't feel fair to me. I don't want to do that or that isn't right. That's what I know. That actually isn't right.

Speaker 2: 16:29

Providing sex and relationship and emotional education all of this what in Sweden they call life education providing this along the way equips kids to feel confident that they know the difference between this and that and then be able to stand up for themselves or get help Right. And so it. You know. We know that kids that get comprehensive sex education, they get involved with sex later they make safer sexual choices, they know how to protect themselves, they suffer less assault, they make better choices down the road with relationships that are more egalitarian. They're not so in such a hurry because they're not trying to impress. They actually kind of know that it's a complex issue and they want it to go well for them because they're having lots of conversations Sometimes that I have this in the book for older parents or for parents with older kids. There's a book called not in my house or not not under my roof, I'm sorry by Amy Shalit and she grew up in Holland, where they have comprehensive sex education as most of the.

Speaker 2: 17:30

Northern European countries do. And then she came to the U? S to study grad school and she couldn't figure out why kids and parents were so different around relationships and sexuality. And so she did a did a qualitative study where she interviewed families, kids and parents in two cities in Holland and then the same in the U? S, and then wrote a book about how it's done differently, and it can be shocking to American people to read that book and be like kids actually talk to their parents about all of this stuff they talk about to their parents about masturbation.

Speaker 2: 18:07

They talk to their parents about liking somebody. They talk to their parents about readiness to touch and does their parents think they are their first sexual experiences are at home and it's all been talked about ahead of time. So these kids have very different experiences. There's much less hooking up for no reason. They want to be treated well and they want to treat people well. They want good experiences. They know about them and so they seek them and they ask for guidance. We know from research that kids who have comprehensive sex education with their parents describe themselves as closer to their parents overall in adolescence. So you want to be connected to your kids. Learn how to do this, because your kids will be like, if my parents can talk to me about this, I can talk to them about anything.

Speaker 1: 18:57

Right, and that's what? Oh, that's what, as a mother, that's what we want them to feel safe to tell us anything, oftentimes, so we can swoop in and fix it right when we're not supposed to, but you know, just as a mom we want to, you know we want to know everything and we want to you know, to be their person.

Speaker 1: 19:15

I think that this has been kind of eye opening to me, because when I think about having sex conversations with kids, I think about because we want to have those conversations to avoid unwanted pregnancies, stds, date rape, things like that. But it is, it's a lot more than just arming them to protect themselves physically from things that can happen and go wrong when they're sexually active.

Speaker 2: 19:39

It's about so much more together and knowing their own body that they will be able to make really good choices and find people who are loving and kind and trustworthy and who listen and want to know who they are, and they know how to ask questions and learn about somebody else. We're teaching them about bonding and attachment at the deepest level so that when they go do that with good friends or with partners, they're picking really quality people for themselves. They're creating a community that can nourish them through their lifetime. There's an 85 year study at Harvard called the happiness study, and it's literally for 85 years. They've been looking at what are the ingredients where people say that they're happy, and it all comes down to the strength and wellness of their relationships, not their jobs, not how much money they have, not any of those things that we sell in a capitalist agenda. Right, it's relationships, and when we stop and think about it, we know that's true.

Speaker 2: 21:03

But there was research done just in 2017 on the impact of sexual shame on people's life, and the place that it hits you the most is trust, communication, identity. You believe you're unworthy of love, belonging, connection, pleasure. I mean, I could read you the definition. It is profound, but this is exactly where it hurts people. Sexual shame hurts your ability to bond well and create strong attachments.

Speaker 2: 21:36

So people get in relationships and they're like okay, I was raised a boy.

Speaker 2: 21:42

I learned that I, that I kind of learned that women were there for my own pleasure. But I really like this person, so I'm going to, I'm going to do to them what I saw on pornography or what I heard from my friends, but she starts to distance herself but then she's trying to go along with it because she heard that in order to kind of be popular and get this person to like you, you've got to do what they want to do when they want to do it. So when this couple straight couple gets married, he comes in thinking he gets something and she comes in thinking he deserves something and they end up having a transactional sexual relationship that is really not emotionally nourishing to either one and often is only physically pleasurable to one and not the other. Those people end up in my office and every other you know couples therapists who's also a sex therapist in their offices because they're like we're unhappy but we don't know how to make ourselves happily, and it goes all the way back to this.

Speaker 1: 22:49

Well, how do you? What do we? You've been saying the word sexual shame, right. How do we? How do we get that? How do we acquire that? How do we know if we have that?

Speaker 2: 23:00

Yeah, good question. I'm going to read you the definition, because all of that's actually in there and I think that that will help you and your listeners understand it. Okay, sexual shame. It's a visceral feeling, so it's in your body. It's in your body a visceral feeling of humiliation and disgust toward one's own body and identity as a sexual being, and a belief of being abnormal, inferior and unworthy, worthy. This feeling can be internalized, so it's inside of us. But it also manifests, and I would say it begins manifesting in interpersonal relationship.

Speaker 2: 23:45

It begins at 11 months, when that kid finds their genitals and their caregiver goes oh, gross, yeah, slaps their hand away. Okay, now they don't stop touching their genitals at 11 months. They're not going to get what you're saying until they're three or four. So all the times it happens and somebody's yelling at them or telling them that it's gross, don't touch. Right, they're downloading. Something must be wrong with me, because I don't actually understand, because I'm just being me. I'm just doing what my reflexes are to do, right? I like pleasure. I'm learning about food. I'm learning about everything. Right, I'm going to do this thing because it feels good. It's like the inside of my bunny's ear. It feels good. I keep getting in trouble. I don't understand, so it must be me.

Speaker 2: 24:33

Okay, so it begins in interpersonal relationships having a negative impact on trust, communication and physical and emotional intimacy. Sexual shame develops across the lifespan. So just like I'm talking about really young and then over and over and over and over and over again, so many different ways, right and interactions with interpersonal relationship. But then once culture and society lays its own layer on top of it, okay, we have 50% of six-year-old girls in the U S, two thirds of nine-year-old girls and 90% of 15 year old girls modifying their diets because they believe their bodies are not okay. Okay, this is just from media, right? Okay. So once culture and society lays its stuff and then creates a subsequent critical self-appraisal, so the internal critic gets going, going, see, there, you are screwing up again. There you are, you're fat, your nose is too big. To death, to death, to death. This is going on all the time inside their head. Then it goes on to say there is also a fear and uncertainty related to one's power or right to make decisions, including safety decisions related to sexual encounters, along with an internalized judgment toward one's own sexual desire. So I don't even believe anything about my sexual desire is good. It's bad in so many different ways, right, but this last piece, I think, is really important.

Speaker 2: 26:03

Peggy Ornstein wrote a book called Girls and Sex and she also later wrote a book about five years later called Boys and Sex, and it was based on media's effect on kids growing up right now. She interviewed 80 girls in the Girls and sex book and what she found was the girls seemed confident and competent in every area of their life, talked with confidence and competence in every area of their life, until they got ready to go out and then they were putting down three, four and five shots of hard liquor because they didn't know if they had the right to keep themselves safe or if they could, if they had the right to keep themselves safe or if they could. Now these were not kids from religious homes, but we have been teaching abstinence, education and shaming sex for 45 years now 45 years, even though we know it raises the risk of just about everything related to interpersonal high school relationships or young adult relationships, right, pregnancy, stis, assault. I mean we have a rape culture and that's what this definition is saying that when we've got kids, that they were just raised in culture, they weren't raised in religious homes. They didn't get extra, another whole extra message on top of it, but they learned all this just from culture and the silence, or silence and shame in their own home, around bodies.

Speaker 2: 27:25

Silence sends a message. If we don't talk about it, we learned that's a topic we don't talk about. Something is up with it. I don't know what, but something's up with it. We fill in the blanks. So it's a it's a big deal and it is why I sort of get out there to talk about this, because it also I'm watching all these parents do it differently and they're also having so much fun with their kids. They're like fumbling through together, but they're like they read the books because they don't have to know it. You, the book will help you through it, you know. And they're like oh, that was interesting. I wish somebody had done this for me when I was little.

Speaker 1: 28:00

Right, right. Well, this has really been enlightening and you've touched on this, but I have one last question for you. What do you say to the parent who has a growing teenager and they say we want abstinence, that's it, we're not gonna. You know that, that is our rule. What do you say to the to the parent who has that perspective?

Speaker 2: 28:23

I'm like that is you are a parent, you have the right to make whatever choices feel right for you. I believe that you believe that this is protective to them. But I want you to know that what your child will likely do many, some will comply, but they will be turning off their sexual desire, their sexual thoughts and their sexual feelings as hard as they can in order to comply. And so when it comes time for them to partner, it will not be uncommon for their entire body because it's visceral, their entire body to say no even though their mind and heart is saying yes. And that includes the vaginal canal. All of the muscles inside of there will close.

Speaker 2: 29:08

And this now is a much more that we see much more of this happening to kids who grew up in abstinence only homes, especially authoritarian abstinence, only homes. These kids will either do all that to shove it, shove it, shove it, close it, close it, close it. It's bad as bad as bad, make themselves bad and then try to flip a switch when they get married and the switch won't it won't flip at all. And their whole body it's not just here, not just their mind, but their whole body is on, no and off and bad right, or they'll go underground to try to discover their own truth about sexuality and relationships. But I would say it's like throwing your kids to the wolves to not give them information, because the only place they're going to be able to get it is from other kids and from the media, and that just is not a safe place. We know that 11 year olds can get online and get, within 30 seconds, start getting pursued by somebody who's pretending to be a youth, who is not. So it is not safe out there, and you you're wanting to equip your child to be safe and smart in every other area.

Speaker 2: 30:17

There is no difference here, which is why I think Amy Shalit's book is so good, because you can see what happens in countries and this is true. The reason I know this is I grew up in a Swedish immigrant home, so I had epigenetics. I had generations of people aunts, uncles, grandparents, so on and so forth who talked about bodies and sexuality like they talked about recipes. It was talked about in the kitchen over dinner. It was talked about all the time. I didn't even know that my family was weird until I was in my thirties and I started to hear other people's stories and I'm like it wasn't just that there were other families. I was having a hard time finding any other families like mine.

Speaker 1: 30:56

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:58

And um, but I see bodies and sexuality as a beautiful part of who we are, as created beings, and it should be understood and celebrated. And in a world like ours that is trying to extract and exploit and sell, it's really important to equip our kids to be like I deserve better. Dude, you got to treat me better if you want to be with me or you know what? I treat people with real kindness and I expect to be treated that way too, and they just take that all the way through their body.

Speaker 1: 31:32

Dr Tina, this has been an incredible conversation. I have learned so much from it and you just I mean honestly the way you talk about it. You take the scary out of it. You know and have really made me realize and I'm sure other people listen to this that this is something we don't want to bury our heads in the sand about and it's probably never going to be like super fun to have these conversations with our kids.

Speaker 1: 31:54

It won't with our kids, but it is obviously so important in helping them grow to be the valuable person to know that they're the valuable person that they are. Well again, thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 32:11

I will absolutely be buying your book.

Speaker 1: 32:12

I'm heading over there as soon as we get off of here. We will be putting the links below. And Dr Tina, I know you're active on Instagram. If you want to reach out to her, you can DM her there and we'll also include the link to the book, the website, all the things where you really have some fantastic resources. And again, just thanks for taking your time to share your stories on this really important topic, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 32:32

Now, just give one little thing. If anybody out there can't afford either one of the books that I wrote, feel free to DM me and I will send you a link to an audio version of the book I'm happy to do that.

Speaker 1: 32:44

That's awesome. So well. Thank you so much. We'll make sure that link is right below so people can access it. Thanks again.

Speaker 2: 32:49

Dr Tina Okay.

Speaker 1: 32:50

Talk to you later.