Speaker 1: 0:35

Welcome back to Speak Out. Stand Out. I'm Elizabeth Green and today's guest is Amanda Sheckenberger. Amanda helps moms calm the chaos and confidently homeschool. She leverages her own experience as a homeschool kid and now a mother of four boys inside of her program at homeschoolfamilylegacycom, where she coaches moms to blend rigorous academics with joyful, connected learning. Amanda, we're so grateful to have you here today. Thanks for being here. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:01

Elizabeth, I'm so excited. When you reached out and told me about your resources, I was like this is something we've been looking for, so I'm so happy to meet you.

Speaker 1: 1:12

That's awesome. I'm glad that you were able to use the resources, and I just realized just now that you have four boys. I have two boys of my own, so, fellow boy mom, here I get it, and I think that this is a conversation that we're going to have today applies to all moms, boys and girls, homeschool, not homeschool, all the things, but what more could we want than to, you know, encourage our kids to love learning, to have fun learning, be lifelong learners, and what we really want to talk about today is to be good communicators, right.

Speaker 2: 1:42

Yeah, oh, my goodness. As a kind of an only kid for a long time with a deaf dad, communication was something I had to really work hard on learning how to do.

Speaker 1: 1:56

Oh, I'm sure, and everybody does in different ways, whether it's a challenge like that, or maybe you're in a family with lots of kids and you don't get an opportunity to speak up enough. So what we do, you know, we talk about building communication skills and confidence in our kids so that they can use their voices to make the world a better place, and so that's a very broad thing, right. But what we want to talk today about there, it's not just as simple as teaching them how to speak up, right, there are lots of different levels and layers of communication, and so let's just kind of dive into that a little bit.

Speaker 2: 2:29

Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's some kids that you don't have to teach to speak up, like some of mine. I'm like, can you stop speaking, right, and help them slow down and listen? And so the learning to speak up and the learning to listen well is I like to kind of call it a little bit of a dance. Communication is a little bit of a dance, right, like I'm leaning in and listening and understanding, but also here's my thoughts and feelings, right. And so in my journey of growing up with a deaf dad and kind of being an only for most of my life, I just, for whatever reason and I'm also like personality wise, I'm a bit of a challenger, I'm a quick thinker and sometimes I react before I really have time to like think about what I'm actually trying to communicate, and so it's very guttural and feelings forward, and so I had to really slow down as as a homeschool mom, I'm just as a person in order to communicate effectively, because it's not just about the words I'm saying, it's about the other person and the words they're saying and meaning. And so one of the things that has really helped me when it comes to communication, elizabeth, is learning about the layers of communication and with part of my journey as a mom.

Speaker 2: 4:01

I read a book called Listen Like you Mean it, and the author her name is Zymina Vengochega or something she's got a name that's more abstract than mine and she talks about there being four layers to communication, and I want to just share them with you briefly and we can kind of talk about them a little bit more in depth. But she talks about the four layers being what you mean to say, what you actually say, what the other person hears and then what the listener thinks you mean by that. And so, as you think back over a recent communication with somebody maybe a heated one, right? Did you get out what you meant to say and even so, did the person listening understand your meaning behind it?

Speaker 1: 4:58

That's amazing. I have never heard it broken down like that and that is like the perfect summary of what communication is and also, like you said, what leads to heated communication, right, whenever. We don't understand all four of those layers, so let's start with what the first one was, what you mean to say, right? Okay, so how? How give us some examples of what we mean to say and what we actually say, and how? That doesn't always match up.

Speaker 2: 5:27

Well, sometimes, and so from an adult perspective right Cause there's even a I think there's a fifth layer when we're talking about children but, like from an adult perspective, there are things that I haven't necessarily thought through. For example, a couple of weeks ago I'm on the phone with my husband and I'm having a realization that he got involved in like this little side project with, like ChatGPT, and he's like diving into it. And I'm talking to him, I'm like, but you're, you didn't call me today and you haven't called me for the last few weeks, and and like you're not checking in on me, and I feel neglected. And I'm kind of in the moment, going through these layers of what I actually mean to say is I feel like you've developed a relationship with chat GPT and choosing it over me and I we laugh. But it's real, it's real. I was like you are having a love affair with chat GPT. What about me? Um, and so he's like wow, like obviously I'm going through this like actively, like what am I actually meaning?

Speaker 2: 6:37

And my poor husband, on the other end, he's like it feels like you've been holding this in and like you're being a little passive, aggressive, and I was like no, I'm just realizing it. I'm really upset, you know, and so sometimes when we start talking we just feel conflict and we're not really actually sure what we mean. So now I can playfully, you know, say like, are you done with your love affair with AI and you're going to focus on me and my needs? But I didn't know that's what I meant when I started talking. I just kind of knew there was a problem going on and so, because I wasn't clear on the direction of what I was trying to communicate like what I meant to communicate there was a whole bunch of miscommunication happening in our conversation because I just I didn't know yet what I actually meant.

Speaker 1: 7:35

I think this happens so, so often, especially probably more often in married couples who have been married for many years and have kids, and we have busy lives and lots of things, and I think it's sometimes in my case. My husband will start telling me something and I have to be like I have no idea what you're talking about, because he thinks that he has already conveyed some of this to me and he hasn't, and so it's kind of the same in that. Right, what he's meaning to tell me about is not connecting, because he didn't start from the very beginning, or me maybe saying something in a way, you know, being frustrated over something little when it has a much deeper meaning, like you just said. Right, so how do we you mentioned earlier this is a true fault of mine too is responding through reaction instead of thoughtfully responding. What kind of tips do you have to help us as parents and to help our kids to think through what we really mean before we start just throwing it all out there? Yeah, like.

Speaker 2: 8:37

I did on the phone, my poor husband out there.

Speaker 2: 8:38

Yeah, like I did on the phone my poor husband, yeah. So one of the things is sometimes especially, I think, in our culture, because it's so like instant gratification based and there's a lot of unawareness we have with just our habits, and I think one of the things we can do that is really beneficial for us is to slow down and have some boundaries around responding when we notice ourselves maybe getting a little agitated or upset or you know, like feeling tension, letting that be like a a yellow light and helping us to slow down and be like, okay, if we're in the middle of a conversation that needs a resolution sometime soon not urgent then it's like, hey, I'm starting to feel some feelings. I think I need to take a break to figure out what I really want, to communicate with you and be able to do it in a way that respects you and so really modeling that self-regulation and that awareness. And for some of us, that alone is a struggle, and where it really starts is in something called metacognition, which is thinking about your thinking, and this is where we step into self-awareness and begin to see like, okay, this thought leads to this emotion and this emotion produces this action and this action gives me this result. Do I really like this result. And then working backwards, it's a whole thing that goes on up here, sometimes in like a split second, and then we're just like with all the words, and so when we begin to notice tension rising or feeling upset again, letting that be a yellow light and determining like, okay, I'm feeling some feelings and I want to respect you as a person, and so I think maybe maybe I just need like a minute to breathe, or maybe I need to take like a five, 10 minute break, or maybe a day break, because this is a really touchy subject for me and I want to navigate it well with you, right, and so doing that as a parent, as a spouse, that can be really helpful.

Speaker 2: 11:09

But also we need to like we get to be aware that our children are going through this almost like constantly, especially once they get into these eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 ages, where they're experiencing so many new feelings that they've never had before and they have, like no words to describe them. And they're super reactive because they've got all these like hormones going through their body, whether they're growth hormones or puberty hormones. They're experiencing the internal like narration and story going on in their head. It's a mess and being present and helping them through that, whereas we're adults and we might be like you know what. I need to go and take a break before I can come back and walk through this with you, but we get to be in that with them and not fault them for this weird fifth layer. They have no idea of what they're trying to say or how to describe it, because it's a brand new experience.

Speaker 1: 12:08

I love the visual of the yellow light. I'm such a visual learner and that's something that will stick with me and definitely hear everything you're saying. I'm a fast talker I haven't noticed already and I used to actually be a news anchor and my dad would tell me slow down. But to speak at a normal pace seems so slow to me. But it's the same with reacting. I talk fast and I react fast and I think about experiences like that and it usually doesn't serve me well, especially as a parent and my oldest just turned 16, which is so hard to believe, but he is my personality mirrored back at me.

Speaker 1: 12:53

We both like to have the last word, we both react fast and things like that. And one of the best things that this podcast has done for me is I have learned techniques like that to slow down, to pause, because once you say it, you can't take it back. It's out there, your words are out there. Even if you apologize, even if you say something you didn't mean, it's still out there, they've heard it, it's done. And so the idea, the visual, the yellow light, of just slowing down and pausing. We don't have to react right away and most of the time, if we do give ourselves that minute break or five minute break or anything. Like you said, our reaction is going to be completely different, or our response, I guess I should say, is going to be completely different.

Speaker 2: 13:36

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think you know, obviously there are times in our life where we need that guttural response, like my kids in the road, like I need to like do that before I can even process it. So there are good things about reacting quickly, but most of the situations that us quick thinkers or quick reactors find ourselves in don't need that kind of urgency and so giving yourself a minute to pause. You know, when you have especially like, little kids who are having a tantrum, for example, and you're like I got to fix this now, right, because you're in the grocery store and people are staring, you know what, you probably will never see those people again. Who cares what they think? And we're going to show up.

Speaker 2: 14:19

Well, for my kid in this hard moment I need to think about okay, I'm going to breathe, I'm going to be intentional about how I'm going to respond. And breathing is actually if you're starting to feel like tense or like activated, kind of into fight or flight mode, the quickest way to tell your brain and nervous system to calm down is through slow breathing, with your exhale being longer than your inhale, and that tells your nervous system hey, we're safe. So then your brain doesn't kind of freak out on you and you're able to make more logical, intentional decisions in a hard moment and show up the way that you want to, for like when your kiddo is having a hard time. I love it.

Speaker 1: 15:08

All right, so we've talked about saying what we mean, and then the whole other side of this, like you said, is what do they hear, which I have considered this before. But then also you said what do they think we mean by it? That's a whole, like you know.

Speaker 2: 15:26

they think we mean by it. That's a whole like you know that's just, it's a lot.

Speaker 1: 15:34

Let's dive into that. You know, miscommunication is the number one reason for arguments and I think it all falls in between these two holes here, right, like what we've said and what they hear. So we obviously can't control what happens in their brain or what they hear. What can we do?

Speaker 2: 15:49

Yeah, yeah. So I think this is really, it's really powerful with our loved ones, right, there's going to be some friends we have to navigate this with and there's a whole host of strangers who will never really understand what we mean, and there's only so many hours in a day and only so much energy we have to pour into helping other people understand us. So to some degree, we just have to let our words land where they may and try to do better next time. But in these close connected relationships, understanding how somebody else is wired in their brain especially our children, if we have any neurodivergent learners understanding how they're wired and what makes them tick and their values, is going to really change what you say, so that it lands well with them and is interpreted in a way that you meant it, and so it's like wait, okay, so I want to say this, but how are they going to take this? And so if I say it this way, they'll understand it better. Sometimes talking like even before the words come up takes a lot of energy, and so thinking about communicating with our kids in a way that lands with them number one, I think as the parent, it is our responsibility to land our communication and if that means I have to, as a mom, like violate my personal core values in order to land something for my child, then so be it. I get to turn myself inside out to see my child thrive. Now, hopefully, I don't have to do that, but there's a situation.

Speaker 2: 17:35

My oldest he is very like logical, critical thinking. He's just like the things he values are accuracy and rightness. And then here's me on the other side, where I value intimacy and perspective, and so I'm like let's look at the big picture and let's see what it could have meant or what they could have meant, or what this could mean for us. And he's like no, what does it exactly mean? It doesn't exactly mean that, mom, because it exactly means that we almost lost our relationship together over this. What would happen in our communication is he would do something wrong because he's a kid and I would say, hey, don't punch your brother. I didn't punch my brother and because he values accuracy, he pushed his brother. So in his mind he's upset because I'm saying you did something you didn't do. But in my mind, with perspective, I've had to back up and be like did you intentionally touch your brother in a way to harm him yeah, that's not my favorite thing to say. And then he would go yes, yes, I did. I'm like, okay, so let's look at the heart situation here. Oh, my gosh, sometimes, like talking to my kid kid who is so differently wired, I'm like I want to pull out my teeth instead.

Speaker 2: 19:10

But it got so bad and so hard for us because he was hearing things I didn't mean and he wasn't hearing what I did mean, and it got down to what he cared about more. Just, as a human, we all have different core values. None of them are necessarily wrong, we're just different. And so what I had to end up doing in order to land my communication for this rightness, justice, accuracy piece for him was put to the side my, my deep love of like connection and wanting to understand and seeing the big picture of things and get down to where he saw the division. Because what was happening is, you know let's go back to the example Don't punch your brother, I didn't punch my brother, brother, I didn't punch my brother.

Speaker 2: 20:11

Okay, we would be entangled in these arguments for so long and it just was like you know, like he's the same as me, like we're both challengers, we both want the last word, like you and your son, um.

Speaker 2: 20:17

And so we would get entangled in these, these arguments, and suddenly I would begin to get very upset because the lesson I'm trying to teach him gets lost in all this noise, and it ended up he wouldn't take accountability.

Speaker 2: 20:33

Now, accountability is a very important value that I teach my children, and so that was a fight I wasn't willing to let go of. But I had to put aside the way I was like trying to help him take accountability for the way he would understand it. And so that's what I'm talking about Turning myself inside out to land my communication in a way that my kid thinks and will understand my meaning of it and it. You know, obviously all of our conversations are not like that. We have a wonderful relationship now, he like absolutely. We absolutely adore each other, but there were times that it was so, so difficult and so challenging. I would have rather gone to the dentist and have every single one of my teeth pulled out than had those conversations because our values were so different. But again, one as the parent, it's my job to land the communication in a way that he will understand the meaning.

Speaker 1: 21:33

Yeah, that is so powerful and I think that when you started I've been saying like him, saying I didn't punch my brother. I think a lot of us would just look at that as being more defiant instead of really kind of digging down into. No, he's just speaking logically, like what makes sense, logically in his mind. And my example is a little bit not as intense as that. But my oldest son, for the longest time, if I would say he has to do the dishes every day. That's one of his jobs. He has to do the dishes every day. It's not a surprise.

Speaker 1: 22:05

For a long time he would act like it's a surprise, like he hasn't done it every day for months and it caused issues. But whenever I would say, don't forget, you need to do the dishes, he took that as me being upset with him and it took me a long time to realize that that he would think that I was disappointed or mad or frustrated. Even if my tone was like, hey, babe, don't forget to do the dishes, he's still hearing and interpreting it differently than what I was trying to say and so I've had to work on that. And he still has to do the dishes. I still have to remind him to do the dishes, but I try to say and so I've had to work on that, and he still has to do the dishes, I still have to remind him to do the dishes, but I try to say it, I try to be more cognizant of the way I say it. Or even, like you know, if you're going to go to your friends, don't forget. You need to do this at some point before you go.

Speaker 1: 22:52

We good and you know, just, or even like giving him a hug he's a, very, he's a, he's a hugger and just showing him that I'm just giving you a reminder, I'm not frustrated, I'm not upset with you in any way, shape or form and it. But, like I said, for the longest time I just took it as him bucking me. I'm not wanting to do the dishes, but he was taking it as he wasn't doing enough I he wasn't pleasing me, I guess you know, because I had to tell him to do it. And I think if we don't stop and slow down, like you said, and look at these different layers, we can really cause rifts in our relationships. And, like you said, I mean communication is supposed to be easy, but it's anything but.

Speaker 1: 23:35

Oh, yes, it's true, but yes, it's true. Well, amanda, I think this has been really, really great. I love the layers, I love the yellow light visual aspect of all of this. Is there anything else before we are I know we're running out of time Anything else that you want to share with our families? That has really been beneficial to you in building those communication skills in your kids.

Speaker 2: 23:56

Yeah, that's a really good question. So I think again, slowing down and having meeting our kids at their understanding, so understanding their age and their stage and your relationship with them, so thinking about you know all the way up to eight, nine years old, right, your kid thinks you're amazing and like you do everything perfectly, even if you like apologize profusely multiple times a day. They're like yeah, you know everything.

Speaker 1: 24:28

I asked my eight year old and I was like do you think?

Speaker 2: 24:30

I know everything. He's like yeah, I was like, no, no, I don't, no, no, I don't. But then there is this time period of like nine to 11, 12, where we're shifting from being this all amazing person who has all the answers I like to call it the sage on the stage. Now we're becoming the guide on the side. The guide on the side and approaching our communication with them in a much more collaborative manner and allowing them to feel the impact of their choices. And I mean, I have.

Speaker 2: 25:12

I have boys, and I always think about if I'm going to be real. I don't want a mom calling me and a mom saying your son got my daughter pregnant. That's a big fear of mine, right. And so I'm like, okay, if I don't let them feel the impact of their consequences. Now, what am I setting them up for down the line? What am I setting them up for down the line?

Speaker 2: 25:38

And so when they did you know they forget to bring their gi to jujitsu, then they're the one not in a gi, like, sorry, pal, I'm not going. Yeah, we live five minutes away, I'm not going back to get your gi. You, you should have done that. Oh, I wanted to come out and run with you. I forgot my shoes. You, you should have done that. Oh, I wanted to come out and run with you, I forgot my shoes.

Speaker 2: 26:03

Okay, well, there's glass potentially in the parking lot. You, that's just, that's not an option. And helping them, like standing in this position of guide on the side and allowing them to feel the weight of their choices, whether they're big or small, is really setting them up for responsibility as they're heading into a stage where you know they might be driving soon and you know, like giving them a death machine that they can, they can drive and potentially crash. You know, giving them those the feelings of the smaller consequences, now in a safer environment, sets them up for success down the line. And so just really knowing where you're, what stage you're at, you know, stage on the stage, guide on the side, or just more of a collaborative, like friend, parent, as they head into their teen years.

Speaker 1: 26:47

And it is. I think it's one of the hardest things to do as a mom to let them suffer the consequences even over little things. The last thing we want to see is for our kids to be sad or embarrassed or concerned, right. But like you said, if we jump in and save the day every time when they're at this pinnacle point of growing into teenagers and ultimately adults, what's going to happen when we're not there to jump in and save the day? So I think that that's fantastic advice. Amanda, this has been a really great conversation and you have lots of great resources for families, particularly about homeschooling, but just parenting in general, and so I think you have an event coming up, too that tell us a little bit about that. I'm sure some people would be interested.

Speaker 2: 27:31

So at the beginning of April I'm hosting the Calm the Chaos event and this is specifically for homeschool moms and I'll actually be diving into more of this topic of communication, also of our experience as homeschool moms how all that noise inside of our head, the chaos inside of our head, can impact us. The chaos of not having a routine, how that can impact our family and then this relational chaos. So that's the focus of the event really dealing with those three areas of chaos as a homeschool mom. So we'll talk more about communication in that and it's a free event. I would love to have you there. You'll learn a ton, so come prepared to take notes Lots. I'm very practical in the same way when I host events and we'll really begin to tame that chaos as homeschool moms.

Speaker 1: 28:28

Oh, we all need that in our lives, right? Everybody needs that in their lives, for sure. A little bit more calm, a little less chaos. I love it. Well, this has been fantastic. We will link to that event registration page. If you're listening to this through one of the podcast players, it'll be in the show notes. If you're seeing this on social media, just check the post either above or below. In the comments You'll find the links for all of those things that you need to be able to connect with Amanda, learn more about her and sign up for that event. So again, thank you for your time. This has really been great, thank you.