Speaker 1: 0:35

Welcome back to Speak Out. Stand Out. I'm Elizabeth Green and have a very special guest with me today. Kim Hartram is here. Kim is with the National Alliance on Mental Illness for South Carolina, and we're here to have a heavy conversation, but a very important one, kim. We're so glad to have you here.

Speaker 2: 0:53

first and foremost, Thank you so much for having me. I look forward to talking to you about these things that our kids are going through.

Speaker 1: 1:00

So we know I mean, we grew up right, we were kids, we were teenagers at one point we know how challenging it can be to go through those changes and to figure out who you are and all of these things. But it can be even harder for certain people who really struggle with mental health, and I know that we are hearing so much more about this in today's day and age and I'll be interested to kind of get your feel on this. Is it because it's more common or we're just talking about it more? But, as a parent, I think one of the biggest worries for me as a parent is losing a child, but particularly losing a child to suicide. And so, again, heavy conversation. But that's what we're here to talk about today, because we need to have this knowledge, we need to be equipped with this so that we can keep those lines of communication open with our kids. So, kim, I mean just to kind of dive right in why are you in this role and why is this your path in life?

Speaker 2: 1:58

Okay, so I am a youth-centered coordinator. I go to different schools throughout counties in South Carolina and I talk about the warning signs of mental health conditions and suicide prevention, and one of my job requirements is actually to have lived experience with mental illness. So I use my own story to help kids get a picture of what that can look like if they see it in their friends or in themselves, so that they can get help earlier than I did.

Speaker 1: 2:28

So tell us about your experience.

Speaker 2: 2:31

Okay. So as an adult, I'm a former middle school English teacher with a couple other grade levels involved, but that was my primary role. I've always experienced several mental health conditions. The most prominent one for me is anxiety. Every memory I have from the earliest points in my childhood were covered in anxiety and they still are. But I've learned coping skills to be able to lead a more productive life.

Speaker 2: 3:03

So I didn't really have the language, as you were saying. Is it talked about more now? And I think that it is. I think that it's a good thing that we're talking about it more, because when I needed help when I was younger, my mom was also struggling, so she was very focused on getting well herself and my dad was just kind of like, hey, what's going on with everyone? So I didn't have the language to really know what was going on. We didn't have the internet to search and see ourselves and other people, so I just kind of had been winging it for 40 years.

Speaker 2: 3:44

I became a middle school teacher, became a mom, kind of kept quiet about it because my family doesn't really discuss mental illness very much, and my role as a teacher serving 125 students a day role as a teacher serving 125 students a day. My stress level and anxiety couldn't take it anymore. So I started having breakdowns that started with panic attacks. It led to a serious manic episode that came from misadministered medication and just some things that you know. 2020 hit all of us and some other things added up and I found myself unable to teach grocery shops, make eye contact or function at all. So I got some help. I've been helped throughout the years, but the help that I got was more specific throughout the years. But the help that I got was more specific and started joining a support group with NAMI, learning about other people's struggles and kind of finding that fellowship, knowing that you're not alone.

Speaker 2: 4:53

Going through this and that's what I try to get the kids to understand is that we all have mental health and everybody's is different. It's on a spectrum and we can do things to make it great. Sometimes, even if you know it can still slip in and we need extra help, and it's not something that you should be ashamed of. So when my kids were born and my students were experiencing mental health conditions and my own kids started showing signs of them, I didn't want to be quiet about it anymore. So once I got my footing back and became a functioning adult again, which took a lot of time. I found this opportunity with NAMI where I could actually speak openly about what I'd been through, and that's given me the opportunity to be back in a classroom, to be around students, to let them know that it's okay to not be okay and it's just. It's given me my purpose back times 10. And I'm just really happy that I'm able to support the students in our area.

Speaker 1: 5:54

Absolutely A very needed resource, you know, for all students and all people. But let's go back to when you said as a child you had anxiety, but you didn't know that's what it was. What does anxiety look like in a kid?

Speaker 2: 6:09

And we all experience anxiety, nervousness. I like to put the kids on the spot and say you know, hey, can you come up here and finish this presentation for me and you'll see that, oh my gosh, what is she expecting of me? And I'm just giving them that feeling and that's normal, that stage fright, that feeling that you have right before a test, that kind of thing. My anxiety was so extreme that if I couldn't I mean as far back as like three-year-old dance lessons if I couldn't see my mom in the room, I couldn't function, follow instructions. She would follow the school buses if I was on a field trip, so that I knew that she was nearby.

Speaker 2: 6:49

I'm still super clingy with my husband and my children and as I got older it became harder to do the normal things we do each day, like go to the grocery store. Order to do the normal things we do each day, like go to the grocery store. With the sensitivity issues that I have and the concerns of it's not even fear, it's just the feeling of not. I don't feel like I fit in that space. So I would feel like I was in the way. Making eye contact with perfectly friendly people seemed like I was in front of a firing squad. Contact with perfectly friendly people seemed like I was in front of a firing squad. Just everything has a level of nervousness to it. That's in my gut, it's in my nerve endings, and that's what I felt as a child. I just felt disconnected from everyone else who appeared to be enjoying their life or handling their challenges without that extra piece always knocking at the door saying you're not okay, you're not going to be okay, kind of feeling.

Speaker 1: 7:52

And so if we're seeing this in our own children or thinking, oh, that does sound kind of like my own child or me, you know. But I know today we're really kind of talking about our children and keeping the lines of communication open, where do we start? I mean, how do we start to even give them the language to understand their feelings, so that we can understand how they're feeling?

Speaker 2: 8:14

A lot of kids show it as tummy aches, not wanting to go to school or participate in an activity, tummy aches not wanting to go to school or participate in an activity things that they even really enjoy, because they have such a pull to not. I don't want. I don't like using the word fear all the time, because it's not necessarily as a fear, it's just a knowing that that doesn't feel right. So when I, when you see that, I would suggest being really open to starting conversations that aren't super direct, like you know, diving right into it, but just kind of getting a feel of where your child might be going through, and then being open to continue that conversation, look for those signs that could lead to something more severe later in life and start therapy early.

Speaker 2: 9:02

My oldest daughter asked me when she was eight why she wanted to die at bedtime and I didn't realize that children that young could have suicidal ideation. She has severe ADHD and other mental health conditions and it was that kind of that was the turning point to saying okay, let's slow this down, where is this coming from? Why is this happening and getting help for her? So she's 27. She's doing well, she struggles, but she learned coping skills to kind of change the channel so that she wouldn't be so interrupted by those thoughts. But her ADHD and rejection feelings were like I'm not smart, like they are, nobody likes me, the parents don't even like me, I'm ugly, I should just be dead. And she started that earlier than age eight and it was pretty devastating to know that kids that young can be hurting that much. And had she not spoken that out loud we wouldn't have known and that would have put her further at risk for taking her life.

Speaker 1: 10:14

So what kind of questions can we stem? How do you suggest that we do broach If we're in the situation where we have concerns but they haven't come to us with that kind of information where we're like this is a real issue?

Speaker 2: 10:27

NAMI actually has some resources. I don't have them with me right here, but they have like Tuesday conversations where there's some questions that you ask just to keep that line of communication open that you ask just to make. Keep that line of communication open and you can find that on our website and among thousands of other resources that are are good for parents. But keeping that communication open not not shaming them for the way that they feel like you'll get over it tough enough. And my dad tried to toughen up with me for sports and things like that.

Speaker 2: 11:04

I would be smacked in the face with a baseball before I even realized that I was in a baseball game because I was so anxious about the situation I was in. So toughen up isn't always the best answer for that. That they know that they can come to you. My kids all three of them have come to me with a challenge this week that that's more than I feel like they should be going through, but I'm so happy that they feel comfortable enough to still reach out and it's just an open line of communication at all times.

Speaker 1: 11:38

Yeah, I, it's so important and you know, I think what you've been talking about is making me think about you know, we as parents, we want to make sure that our kids are okay, right, so we monitor their grades, we take them to the doctor to make sure that they're growing in the way that they should. But mental health is a huge aspect of things and there's no like, just wait, like I go to the doctor. Oh, you know, they can say like you're a little bit underweight, maybe we need to add a little protein to your diet. Like we don't have that when it comes to mental health.

Speaker 2: 12:07

So, with mental health you're looking at, does your child have a decent social group? Are those people within the social group the type of people that they can get they can have a positive relationship with? That's going to make their life better and not worse. Watching how they're socializing, looking for those kind of key fit in moments where they're not stressing out because they're trying to have a conversation, they're not feeling really overstressed because it's a sleepover and they don't know how to act.

Speaker 2: 12:41

I mean, anxiousness does come with new activities, but if you see things over and over again and they seem to be getting worse, like a child with depression might look like they just don't care about school anymore. They just you know everything is kind of a whatever. But then you're looking for things like are they not? Are they sleeping the whole weekend away? Are they ignoring their friends? Have they stopped eating? Have they stopped sleeping? I mean, whatever the extreme is that's different from their norm kind of gives you a signal that something might be going on that you know this is a spectrum, right, it's not.

Speaker 1: 13:23

It's like every solution is not going to work for every person. But you were talking about, like anxiety and being so anxious to go and participate in things or do things. If we have a kid that we feel is like that, is it recommended that we encourage them to, you know, gently, encourage them to keep trying new things, because we do want them to be well-rounded and all of that, or is it more recommended that we step back and say this is maybe just a little bit more than I'm nervous about this activity?

Speaker 2: 13:50

I think a little bit of both. You want to encourage, to see if they try it like it, want to continue that activity with your support. But if you notice that it's taking a toll on them, I wouldn't continue pushing them in that area. But I also wouldn't stop activities, because isolation is the most damaging part of the whole picture. I can't speak on everyone but for myself. When I isolate, that's when I know that I'm headed back into a downturn. So it might not like, for instance, the baseball with my dad. That might not have been my thing, but a craft group might have been better. So finding what fits for the child. But if you see that it's just not right for them and they're not comfortable doing it, I wouldn't push that too far.

Speaker 1: 14:44

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, we don't want to shelter them so much that they don't have experiences when it might just be butterflies you know might just be like you know.

Speaker 1: 14:51

Like you said, most people get nervous in new situations. But if it's you know, obviously we want them to grow from that and for it to benefit them, not be a detriment to them. Let's talk a little bit about. I mean, like I said, suicide is one of and I have anxiety as well. So maybe not everybody worries about things like this like I do. Maybe it's my anxiety, maybe it's a mom thing I don't know, cause I only have my lived experience but as a mom of young teens and I know suicide rates are so high and it's just so scary, besides, just like praying about it and trying our best to keep those lines of communication open so our kids know that they can always come to us, what else can we do?

Speaker 2: 15:40

In many schools you can find support through your guidance office. In the beginning. That's where I learned that there was something different about me, and then I would continue on with therapy. Even if someone's not you don't see someone headed towards a crisis, they can still benefit from therapy to learn coping skills, to keep things from happening and change the way your thought process is and things like that, but always making sure that you know that what the next step is going to be. So if you have a child that's super anxious or depressed and guidance isn't the best helpful thing that's happening at school, then you're going to move on to therapy and then you know, find a psychiatrist that fits for you and fits for your child. So just keeping, just knowing what that next step is going to be as you're going along.

Speaker 2: 16:34

I never had suicidal ideation and I think it's because my anxiety was so high that she was like, girl, we're not going to do that, that's scary. So I didn't have that experience until I was. It was in 2022. And I was a full, full adult at this point, with full grown children. To have that experience and know all the things I know. I have a bachelor's degree. I've worked with students. I've monitored my own mental health for all of these years. To have that experience and not know what to do during that time scares me for our young people, because I have the background and I have the information to stay safe. So for someone who experiences those feelings at a very young age without the the you know lifelong lessons that come with it, um, we do need to keep an eye on our kids. We definitely do.

Speaker 1: 17:33

And what if it's not like our child that we're necessarily worried about? Maybe it's our, one of our kids' best friends? You know, um. You know what do we do in those situations? How do we talk to our kids about supporting them and also knowing when it's not okay to keep secrets?

Speaker 2: 17:49

Right. So in the presentation we have a slide about suicide prevention and it's kind of like first aid to the student here's what you're going to do if your friend is at risk. Interstate to the student here's what you're going to do if your friend is at risk and it tells them what to look for. Like they're withdrawing, they feel like they're a burden, they feel desperate or trapped, and then it gives them the crisis lines that they can text and call 8988. And they can text or call even if there's not a crisis, so that they can feel support from other people that aren't right involved in it.

Speaker 2: 18:28

But we also teach about having a trusted adult. So you would be the trusted adult, probably for your child and they would come to you to talk to you about something going on with their friend. That's when you would get the other parent involved and if the parent's not receptive, then the school. So that kind of taking a village to raise a child, because we often don't display the same things for the people that we live with as we do our friends and confidants when we're young. So just making sure that you're able to contact a parent or the school if something was to be scary.

Speaker 1: 19:07

And I know a lot of many of our listeners are homeschooling families, so what would you suggest in that scenario? What would be their next step, beyond the parent, if their child's not in a school that they can reach out to the counselor?

Speaker 2: 19:19

I would reach out to a private therapist or if I'm in a lot of schools that are low income. So there's resources for people who don't have great insurance to get the couple of psychiatrists that we have in the area. It's very underserved. So we do have places like Catawba Mental Health where they can talk to a counselor. And when you go to Catawba it's not like you're going there to get medication. You're going there, you receive an intake interview and then you see a counselor several times before any medication is administered. So there's group therapies. There's different things that you can do there as well.

Speaker 2: 20:03

We also have and this might be something for homeschooling students who aren't around a lot of people all the time if they are struggling NAMI okay. So I'm with NAMI, the state, the state department, and then locally we have NAMI Piedmont Tri-County and they have support groups every Tuesday night for teams. They have a game night on Friday night. So there is another place that people can go to. You know, be around peers that may be struggling as well, and they're very active in York, chester and Lancaster County.

Speaker 1: 20:38

Okay, and this is is NAMI a national program or is it just in South Carolina? Okay, because if you're listening to program, or is it just in South?

Speaker 2: 20:42

Carolina. Okay Cause if you're listening to this and you're not in South Carolina, then you'll have access to this as well, just go to NAMIorg or NAMI and then your state letters like SCorg, and that'll take you to the resources for your region.

Speaker 1: 20:58

Okay, any other tips or you know, words of advice or words of wisdom that you share with others, that you know to help, just just to help us navigate something like this.

Speaker 2: 21:11

When I'm talking on the student level, I share my experience in 2022, because it was so unlikely that I would be someone who would die by suicide and after the devastation that swept me away and my family and finding help again, I felt it was important to share that if you ever feel that moment of not going on any further. I was in this room where I am right now and I had two ways to end my life, and the final question I had to ask myself was which way one of these ways will hurt my family less when they find my body. And in that moment, I had a glitch, which is a very good glitch. It was like whoa, we don't do this, and I was very fortunate to have that.

Speaker 2: 22:03

And what I want the students to understand when they see me is that I'm making eye contact with them, I'm making jokes, I drove my own car there, I can do all of the things, and in that moment, I never thought I could do that again and it was my brain lying to me. So for every student I talk to there's been thousands in the last year I just want them to remember the lady that made eye contact and is still alive, so that if they ever feel that that happened in their life, that they know that there is something to do beyond this point, this is not the end. You can be at the very bottom of everything in your life and still come back and live a purposeful life.

Speaker 1: 22:44

Yeah, and that's wonderful to hear and, I'm sure, inspiring, you know, to especially kids in this scenario, but even just kids who don't really struggle with mental health.

Speaker 2: 22:55

Here's. I have a note here from a student. I'm sorry I should have had this completely out. So thank you for taking the time to speak with us and for the impact you had on me. I'm struggling with my mental health right now and you really helped me to believe that I can overcome it. I got home from school that day and immediately asked my parents if I could start speaking to a therapist. That was the first time I'd ever reached out to anyone about my mental health, so thank you for giving me the courage that you did, and I have tons of these and responses to evaluations that were. Kids never felt like they could talk about it and because people like me are openly talking about every detail of it, they feel comfortable enough to ask for help.

Speaker 1: 23:42

So wonderful, wonderful. Well, one last question for you. It let's well. I have two different, two different kinds of questions. One is how likely are we to be impacted by this in our lives? Not necessarily have a child or somebody we know commit suicide, but have somebody really considerate that's close to us. How likely is that to happen?

Speaker 2: 24:06

I don't have actual statistics on that, but I think that pretty much almost all of us. Before I start the presentation, I ask kids how many people know of someone with a mental health condition and they start listing off bipolar schizophrenia, depression, all of the things that can really take people from our lives, and a lot of them have experienced it already with siblings that are gone and parents that are gone, and I think that we're all at risk for experiencing this.

Speaker 1: 24:40

Okay, one last question for you, then. Um, if we let's say, this is not something maybe we've really had conversations about with our kids, we just, you know, we know it's out there, we prefer just to think, oh, that's, that's not going to happen here. My, my kids are fine. Right, we've maybe never really broached these conversations or made, uh, made them aware that you know that they can talk to us about anything. Um, how, how, what do you do if, like, we're kind of backtracking on that, like not with little kids, that we can. You know, obviously we're not going to talk to little kids about this, but you know what I mean. Like we're, we're building those blocks as we go as parents so that they do feel trust in us and and can talk to us about anything. But what if we're like I got to backtrack on this? How can I bring this up with my kid? How can we talk about things like this? Do you have any tips for anybody?

Speaker 2: 25:26

like that and I wish I had that printed off to share with you. But using the conversation starters that we have at NAMI are helpful ways to do that, sharing your own stories of something that you've been through that you know you normally wouldn't share with them, but let them know that they're not alone, that you felt that way at that same age. And then, being a professional, there was times where I thought you know, my daughter was looking for attention or we could just do this on our own. But at 16, she became at risk for suicide, beyond her ideas of suicide. She was hospitalized for it and I felt uncomfortable taking her. I worried about all of the things. How much is this going to cost? We could do this at home, wait for a therapist. But I no longer have any of those concerns because it was.

Speaker 2: 26:23

She came out of the hospital with such a different perspective and was able to really progress further with her plans, and you know what she had going on in her life. And had we made a different decision, I don't know if that would have been the same outcome. And you know most of these conditions are lifelong journeys that we're on. So we need to, as a family, know your child's red flags and I literally have a list of red flags for my husband to start checking off if I'm not doing okay, but know them so that as you see them, if you see one or you see two, you're not too concerned. But if you're having a conversation with your child and you're really digging as deep as you can, keep those red flags handy so that you can make sure that you can be proactive about it and you can step in there before the situation gets out of hand.

Speaker 1: 27:23

And I guess it's probably also really important to to help them understand that. You know, mental health is a real thing. Just like somebody might have diabetes or somebody, you know somebody might have anxiety. Like it's not. It's it's not like oh goodness, you know what I mean. Like you, you have mental health issues. I mean, I think that we're in the world today where that is becoming much more known and accepted, that it's okay to talk about these things. This is normal. A lot of people feel these things and keeping it bottled up is not going to help, but it's not really any different than a physical ailment, right?

Speaker 2: 27:56

We actually do talk about mental health and physical health are the same, and I use examples like if you're having an asthma attack, do you just go to bed for the weekend and hope you feel better on Monday? And they're like, no, you could die, you need to be able to breathe. And I'm like, right, so you go and you get the things that you need to be able to breathe. I said so. If you're depressed, did you just go to bed and hope that it gets better? And they're like, oh, okay.

Speaker 2: 28:22

And another example I use for students who think that kids are looking for attention is that if you've ever planned a vacation, do you ever say you know what else I need to pack Strap throat and a stomach virus, because that's what I really want to do is just be sick on this vacation. Like people don't choose when they're going to have an episode with their mental illness, they're not looking for attention to. You know, I never pack depression with me when I'm getting ready to go on vacation, but sometimes she shows up and we've got to do what we got to do. So getting the kids to see that it is. It's no more scary when taken care of as strep throat, ear infection or an asthma attack, that they can see it as a physical part of your. Your brain is in your body, so let's take as good a care of our brain as we do our lungs, you know.

Speaker 1: 29:16

Yeah Well, I think that's a fantastic note to end on. Kim, we really appreciate you sharing your story. I know it's not easy to do, but really appreciate that you have taken this experience, this horrible experience, and turned it into something that is helping so many kids and teens, and that's just a really, really wonderful thing. I hate that you had to go through it, but I'm glad that you are using it for the betterment of the people around you. So we will make sure, if you're if you're listening to this or watching um one, we'll link to NAMI um in the show notes and in the post wherever you're watching this video, so you can click through find your state. I'm going to be going to check out those, uh, Tuesday conversations. Um, I think that's, you know, so valuable to have those things in our back pocket, because we just don't always know what to say and the thing is we don't have to figure it out by ourselves. There are resources out there, like you and like Nami, that will help us. So thank you so much for your time.

Speaker 2: 30:10

Thank you so much for having me.