SPEAKER_01: 0:38

Welcome back to Speak Out Standout. I'm Elizabeth Green, and today's guest is Gino Titus Luciano. He is a licensed and nationally certified counselor and the CEO of Kakua Mental Health and Wellness Group, which is a behavioral health practice dedicated to helping individuals, families, and communities navigate life's challenges with, and this is my favorite part, with compassion and clarity. So, Gino, we're glad to have you here today. Thanks for your time.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04

Thank you so much for having me, Elizabeth. It's really great to be on. It is nice to have an opportunity to share some of the knowledge of what I've gathered in my career and share with your audience, especially with serving parents with this mission. I think it's really in line with the work that we do. Serving families is a big part of our mission, you know, with our community and compassion education, I think, are at the forefront of a lot of the clinical work and just about, you know, in general, how we try to help people.

SPEAKER_01: 1:35

My goodness, if we could bring compassion into more aspects of our lives, I think we'd all be in a better place.

SPEAKER_00: 1:40

So absolutely. I am definitely inclined to agree with that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:45

Well, so Gino, first tell us um a little bit about how did you get to this point in your life where this is your focus and um this is, you know, what your your calling is or what what you do. How did you get here?

SPEAKER_00: 1:56

Thank you so much. Um so a lot of um I I think in mental health, I was really unsure of where I wanted to go as a student when I first got into college. And uh psychology kind of came alive to me. And after following a road through that, I made my way through the gamut of the different sectors of mental health from working with autism, so in the behavioral health arena, I've worked in child welfare service, I worked in the prison, uh, so in Department of Justice rehabilitation, uh, and I've served at-risk youth, and then I eventually made my way into private practice. So I worked, I think, in a trajectory where administratively I started clinically, then kind of up then down, and uh I wanted to find a little bit of a balance between administration and clinical. So being able to help orchestrate and work with the team and be able to do practicing on my own as well. So uh that's kind of where the sweet spot and where I'm at right now with Coco MHW group. So yeah, thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01: 2:53

That that's great. And like it's great when you can do a little bit of everything that you enjoy doing, you know? So one of the things we're talking about today is, you know, our focus here is to build confidence and communication skills in our kids and giving parents, you know, strategies that we can do this at home. So one of the things that we want to focus on today is how to repair relationships after conflict or um, you know, it could be minor or major, right? But like it could be just having an argument with your kid because they're running late in the morning or something more serious. But we all have those instances where we do not show up our best for our kids. And and a big part of parenting is owning that and then taking steps to correct it. Wouldn't you say?

SPEAKER_00: 3:39

Absolutely. I, you know, uh, especially when I work with families. So uh the way that I try to work with families is not just with the children. So part of my clinical work I do directly, I work with children. And I like to make sure that we have the primary caregivers, most times parents, who are part of that because they help to shape so much of what happens, not just in the therapeutic room, but in the world outside. And being able to repair conflict is so important, not just because of the dynamic it creates between the parent and child, but what it tells the child uh as they start to grow, because this is information, it's a lesson, and it is their education that they take with them further out. And so I really like to use thematically education as a process of how I explain some of the work that goes into not just therapy, but what we're doing. Like uh for this example, um, when we look at modeling uh apologies or forgiveness or empathy or anything when it comes to conflict repair, it's a part of an education for your child, and they will take that, and that becomes a part of the template of what they use for the next steps when they get into conflict later.

SPEAKER_01: 4:45

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I have had conversations with people who feel very strongly that parents should not apologize to their kids when they make a mistake because they're the they're the authority figure, you know? And um, and I I often wonder, well, if you don't do it for them, how can you expect them to do it to you or to anybody else? Right. I mean, we tell we it's not, it can't be the do as I say, not as I do, right? That doesn't work.

SPEAKER_00: 5:13

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that's something that we know isn't true. Um, you know, and and the famous analogy that I always circle back to is you can't sit there smoking a cigarette and say, don't smoke, don't, you know, don't ever do this. Uh it it really is so much more likely that your children will smoke if you smoke, because if they watch you do it, that is the behavior than which they're going to more likely model. And especially if we want them to not do that, then uh I think that people have talked about the smoking cessation. So just to kind of run with this analogy, um, talking about it with their kids as they process through it, you know, contextually age appropriate. But the idea is uh coming into a place where we can not just walk the walk or talk the talk, but walk the walk as well with our kids. So if we're asking them to do something, we're gonna say that we can do it too. And I feel like that's fair. Imagine, you know, if we look as an adult, we consider it as if we have a supervisor or a boss who's telling us to do some of the hard work or some of the stuff that is really more monotonous or not so fun. But if they're willing to say, hey, let's do this together, or I'll show you, or I'll do part of this with you, it gives a little bit of encouragement where we're like, okay, well, if they're willing to get their hands dirty, if they're gonna come in and do a part of this, I feel a little bit better about that. And I'm more likely gonna try to do it on my own. And it's a big motivator. So it's something that I think that we don't necessarily recognize where these are connected to our adult lives, especially because when we look at adults and children, we, you know, as you talked about, how people want to see like the authority, where it's we're up here, the kids are down here, and we got to make sure we maintain that uh distance between each other. And if we apologize, we're either capitulating or showing some sign of weakness or something in that neighborhood. And that's what most people want to avoid in theory, but inadvertently miss opportunities to help teach, and unfortunately, also do teach some things that they don't want them to be learning.

SPEAKER_01: 7:04

Yeah, absolutely. So, what kind of you work with a lot of kids and families, what uh when we're talking about conflict resolution, what do you see most often are are the issues? What are the hangups? Is it that parents aren't willing to own up and say, oh, I messed up? Or or what do you normally like? I mean, I know every situation is different, but you know, big picture. What are some of the commonalities?

SPEAKER_00: 7:27

No, that's that's a great question. I think on the big picture, what we look at is a lot of people come into parenting, still resolving their own challenges with their parents, which feels kind of funny, but something you'll hear a lot is people will say, I never realized that what my parents were saying until I became a parent. And we start to fall into patterns and then we'll say, Oh my goodness, I never thought I would do that or say that, but I did because my mom did. And either we start to lean, or my dad did, and we start leaning into it, and maybe we think this is how we should do it, but we don't remember what it felt like all the time when we were children, and we were on the receiving end of that. What we do know habitually in patterns uh show us that we tend to emulate what we know. And so what our parents modeled for us, we are more likely to model to our children. And so sometimes in some situations where it gets a little extreme, some people will say, My mom was so strict, I'm gonna be uh so loosey goose, I'm gonna make sure there's no boundaries, I'm gonna keep it, you know, uh even. I don't want to go too hard. But we recognize where there might be some challenges, both on opposite ends, uh, where you know we can see kind of that happening. So one of the most common things I see is people are still working through their own experiences with their parents when they become parents. And so now we're looking at some cycles and how that can affect different generations. Uh the myth to me that I think is most important to talk about is the superhero myth. And that I think encompasses a lot. So the superhero myth is this idea that we have to be perfect, infallible, nothing that we do is wrong. And we see that show up especially in conflict, where what I say is law, what I say is right, and if I go back on what I say or if I admit to being wrong, am I gonna lose credibility with my kid? And I'm afraid of that. And so sometimes I'm gonna double down. And then I'm just gonna say, nope, this is how it is. You know, even if I'm recognizing as I talk through it that I'm wrong, someone might say, you know what, I just gotta keep running with it. But if we were to take that same behavior and put it on a child, that would be infuriating and frustrating because it'd be like, you're clearly wrong. I see it, you see it, and you're just you keep going. But we uh I think as when we're in adult form, as we grow up, as we get older, we think that this is what should happen. So we get caught up in a lot of should modeling from our parents, the should and the superhero myth of needing to be perfect.

SPEAKER_01: 10:04

And I think it's it does, I mean, I'm 42, and I still don't feel like I'm an adult, you know. I think I feel like I would feel different at this point, like mentally. I still feel the same as I did when I was 20, you know, mentally. But um and I don't think that admitting that I was wrong about something has gotten any easier as I've matured. Is that something that it should get easier, or is it something that is it is human nature to want to, you know, to be right, even when we're not?

SPEAKER_00: 10:33

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that is also a big part of conflict is most times. So the idea of conflict again is you have a problem and two people on are on either side of the problem. And problem solving means that you're working for a solution. Conflict and fighting often really mean you're just trying to fight each other, you're going against each other. We're we're taking problem solving out. And most of the times parents walk into a situation, most of us do in any given situation. We walk in with the assumption of saying, I want to fix this problem, but really what we're saying is I want to be right about this problem and I want you to bend into a way that I am happy with. So you make the adjustment. And we fight for our position. We're jocking for position here, and it can be hard to admit that we're wrong, not just because of being wrong, but we don't want someone else to be right. And I think that could be the frustrating part is because we also don't know who the person is that we're talking about. And maybe they're, you know, you can see the smugness on their face, and you're like, oh, I'm not gonna give you the satisfaction of being right. I'm not gonna admit it. I'm just gonna circle this somewhere else, or I'm gonna keep running, you know, running the fight.

SPEAKER_01: 11:40

So, well, what kind of tips do you have for parents to uh uh start to like, I mean, avoid conflict? Like obviously, you know, we're going to have conflict. That's just part of parenting. We're gonna get butt heads with our kids, especially when they're teenagers and they're really becoming their own unique individual person. But what can we do to try to avoid it at most in most situations?

SPEAKER_00: 12:01

I believe that one of the best things that we can do, and this is to me something that I I feel like is one of the easiest steps in regards to uh what feels like not just conflict avoidance, but uh conflict investigation is when we are starting to emotionally escalate, we recognize what's happening. So our emotions work in some people look at it in tears or levels, but we have our primary emotions and secondary emotions. Um, and so when we are starting to get angry, one of the analogies I use is if you were to stub your toe, the first thing you feel is usually, so if you were to stub your toe, Elizabeth, what's the first thing you would feel?

SPEAKER_01: 12:40

Pain.

SPEAKER_00: 12:41

Pain. But then some people right after, and then I'd be like, oh my God, my toe, I'm so angry. We're recognizing that anger is a secondary emotion, and most times we get angry really quickly after we're hurt, and it's so automatic, and we don't recognize it. And so, what I think one of the best steps is recognizing what emotion am I experiencing? And it helps us to stop and say, Why am I experiencing that? So, if our you know, if you're a parent and you got a kid here and they're being stubborn and they're questioning everything you're doing, it may feel infuriating. But if we stop and ask ourselves, what am I upset about? I don't like being questioned. Why don't I like being questioned? Because it invalidates my authority. It does it. Well, that may feel like it does, but really what it is is my kid is curious. They're not just giving in to the words of authority, they're challenging it because they want to know about it. And maybe they're pushing back because they're, you know, they're trying to put a little sting on there. But the idea really isn't that our authority is hurt by somebody questioning it. Because if we feel empowered and believe in what we're saying, we don't need to get angry about it to get the point across. Whenever we learn something, it is more likely we do not learn it when we're angry. So imagine you are in a position where someone is trying to teach you something. Would you learn better if someone is talking to you or if they're yelling it at you? Now, once someone's yelling or angry, you're turning off the receptors of being interested and receptive to the information. You're getting ready to fight. So with parents, one of the things I ask them to do, the easiest thing is stop, identify where the emotion is because we want to slow ourselves down. The second we go into conflict, it doesn't mean that the conflict should stop. It just means how we engage it really becomes important. If we can engage conflict in conversation, that looks much different than conflict with yelling.

SPEAKER_01: 14:37

Yeah, absolutely. That's um, you know, when somebody's yelling, we teach debate. And so um, you know, oftentimes it emotions can get high even in uh, you know, a staged environment like that. But that's the quickest way to lose because nobody's listening to you whenever you're yelling. But it how do we like what what kind of I know you said stop and identify the emotion? Uh should we walk away? Should we try to have this conversation at a later time? Should we um breathing exercises or like what are your kind of go-tos to help us get out of that anger mode that we're getting into?

SPEAKER_00: 15:13

So I I'm I'm a big, I'm a big uh circle back to it when we're ready type of person, because oftentimes we may or may not have the opportunity to fully sit down and have a a talked-out situation where we spend 15, 20 minutes uh explaining something, especially if we're on the move or out the door and we're you know starting to get some pushback from you know from a kid and we're like, nope, we need to go. Uh, this is where we can ask for, you know, this this and this can go into other types of relationship dynamics, but this is where trust comes into uh the relationship between parent and child. And you know, that's something that I'll you know kind of talk about in a in a minute, but really coming back to something doesn't mean that the fight's gonna lose or what you have to say has any value. Walking away is not walking away from the fight, it's taking a minute because we want to come back to it when we're ready. If it is important, then it deserves a time. So if you have something that is important for you to say, to share, to teach, come back to it when you have time to teach the lesson. So whether that is learning how to do some breathing exercises in the moment, and that may just be either doing some box breathings, for breaths in, hold, uh, forebreaths out, hold, and repeating that cycle, that is a is a great thing. But oftentimes most people, when they're in the middle of conflict, they don't have the time to just stop and uh breathe. And someone might just, you know, on the other side of that, whether it's your kid or partner, friend, colleague, wherever you are in conflict, it might be like, what is happening? You're just not talking. So, and and these are and and it's not breathing exercises are great. And I and I really value them. They absolutely help, they can be effective. There is research behind it, it lowers our heart rate, it can breathe up, you know, bring us down. Um, we're we're physically calming down when we get our breathing into a normal rhythm. So there's there's a science behind that and why that is effective. But we are gonna often deploy things that make sense to us in a moment. And if it doesn't make sense to us in that moment, we may not do it. So I think walking away often becomes one of the most effective strategies. But walking away with the intention to circle back, and that can just be I'm gonna put a pin in this here, we will come back to this, or having a word. Some people, in the same way we do safe words, saying, This is getting too heavy, this is getting too aggressive, we're gonna come back to this, or I don't have time to explain this to you now. We're gonna come back to this conversation later tonight. But we schedule it. So anytime we walk away from something, we have to bring intention about coming back to the conversation. We will have this conversation tonight at seven, over dinner or after dinner, we're gonna have this conversation. And, you know, some people may think, well, I don't want to prep them or get them ready to either avoid or to be ready for the for the fight, you know, that you don't want to give them time to prepare. But I think that it's it's an important thing for them to, you know, have time to reflect as well. So taking a step and walking away to me is one of the most effective strategies. You understand your emotions, find out where you are. And if you are in a place where you just can't have that conversation, walk away, reschedule.

SPEAKER_01: 18:15

Yeah, I think that that is one of the most valuable things that I have learned in recent years through talking to different experts like you on this podcast. Uh I happen, I'm one of those people that I want to have the last word, I want to win. And um my my one of my sons is exactly like me. And so I have had to learn to stop, walk away. And um, it changes everything. And um it is just by doing that, actively, proactively doing that, has made a major difference, I feel like, in our relationship and the conversations we can have. Because um, you know, you know, like the fighting doesn't help anybody, right? Having the last word it doesn't help anybody. But so by modeling that, I feel like it's been um a huge, huge thing that I have learned and um has helped as we're navigating teen years.

SPEAKER_00: 19:06

Oh, teen years. Those are the challenging ones. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Um as we also look for uh tips and strategies, one of the things that we can really do for our kids and for ourselves that we'll really think ourselves later is also learning to forgive overtly. And that may seem almost counterintuitive as a parent, uh, especially in a moment where we want them to learn a lesson first, that is, oh, you did something wrong, you gotta come back to it, then I'll forgive you. But we forgive behaviors uh or we forgive actions ahead of time and say, you know, if someone's coming to us with an apology, um, we can offer them forgiveness, but say, forgiveness doesn't mean that you're not gonna be removed from consequence. But what it means is that we're not holding you, you know, we're not holding grudges against each other. And that really leads to repair. So most times when we want to address conflict, using empathy, using forgiveness, there are so many uh basic tools that are at our disposal that if we bring into our relationship with our child, it is going to take them some time. They might be cautious about it because they may feel like it's a trap or a trick. But eventually when they recognize I can be forgiven for maybe a behavior that I did. But it doesn't mean that I don't have to follow up with any consequence from it. But what it also means is that when I do something wrong, I know that I can go to my mom, I know that I can go to my dad, I know I can go to the person who's supposed to care for me because the love is consistent. And that really is a big thing underneath so much of strong parent dynamics is that at the core, are we leaning on love? And so most of the times, you know, people get on their nerves, they test us and they push us, but we still love them. You know, most, you know, most unquestioned thing for most parents is the love is permanent, it is there. And so if we lead with that, if we put that at the forefront of our thoughts with our children, when we're in conflict, it can help us make some of these decisions.

SPEAKER_01: 21:05

Yeah. And do you do you recommend that we actually say, hey, you know what? I forgive you for that before before they apologize. Or I mean, is it something that we're we're internalizing, but is it valuable and important to say?

SPEAKER_00: 21:17

I think that that can be something that is really healthy, but I think that the way that we frame it is important. So if we frame that in the moment, it can feel a little passive aggressive. But if we frame it in conversation that we circle back to, or if we take some time to reflect on it, the idea too is because we're teaching them about anger. And I think this is really important, especially for you know boys and young men, to understand how to process anger. And oftentimes uh anger is something that people hold on to. I'm gonna hold on to my anger at you almost like I'm not gonna put my own anger away until you do something that I feel warrants me putting it away. But that really just hurts ourselves. So it's like holding a box, and that box may weigh five pounds, and you can hold it for you know five, 10 minutes without it getting heavy. But over time, that five-pound box, after a couple hours, after a couple days, it's gonna start weighing on you. And it is much better to put it down in the beginning and say, I'm not gonna hold on to this as anger. I can process my own emotions. Forgiveness is just saying I am completing the cycle of emotional uh regulation. I'm regulating my emotions by saying, I experienced negative spectrum emotions, anger, sadness, but I brought myself into a healthy space. A lot of people think if I forgive you, I am promising something negative. And that really isn't the case. But what we're teaching our kids is complete your emotional cycle. It's okay to not be angry, and it's okay to feel something negative like anger, and then come out of it on the other side and say, okay, I'm not angry now, and I can still work into something that I have either done or someone else has done, and recognize that consequences still can be in place without anger. Anger and consequences don't have to be in a relationship all the time.

SPEAKER_01: 23:04

I think that is so key. And I love that you use the word consequences as well. I think as a society, we're learning to get away from using the word like punishment, right? Because we're not trying to punish, we're trying to discipline so that they learn from their mistakes. So um taking the emotion out of it, the anger out of it, I think is um is so key. What do you say to the parent who's like, okay, you know, I'm in a rough spot with my kid. We've just, you know, we butt heads a lot and I've I've not handled things correctly. What can I do now to repair the damage that I may have caused?

SPEAKER_00: 23:38

Yeah. And and that is something that I have worked with. And it is hard sometimes to get just, you know, when we approach that, because we start to recognize through our kids as we learn, we're like, oh, I recognize some of the behavior I modeled for them, or something that I have allowed to happen, or I've cultivated that. Part of it is really being direct with our own uh behaviors and our own choices and say, Hey, in the past, I know that I may have been guilty at yelling at you and just you know, saying, get this done, not hearing your side, and then expecting you to do something and you don't like it. And maybe we recognize we're not being empathetic, we're not apologizing. And so if we want to bring that into the table and say, I'm trying to bring change into the room, we bring it as authentic as we can. And again, we take away the superhero myth where we don't need to uh, you know, we don't need to be weak or show any signs of emotions for our kids. One of the things I hear a lot with parents is I'm trying to be strong for my kid. And most of the times people think about that in the context of something um more on sadness or pain. Um but that also shows up when we are using any type of disciplinary action. I'm not just gonna be strong for my kids by not being emotional. I'm gonna show up by being, you know, this kind of this hammer, this, you know, and I'm and I'm here to get the nails. But if we can share with our children that we are fallible, that we make mistakes, and that part of being a parent or part of being a human and our in our work here is to learn from our mistakes and that we want to do something different. We talk about change with them and say, I'd like to make a change to this, how I speak to you. I may not get it right the first time, I may not get it right the second time, but I'm gonna learn and grow because it's important for us to change our dynamic together. And so I'm gonna be a part of this. So bringing your child into this as something that, again, in the beginning I said that with conflict, we see ourselves as on the other side of uh each other sometimes, fighting each other instead of problem solving. We take the opportunity to problem solve together. And that really to me is change the orientation to problem solving. So if you want to reshape something with a parent who recognizes, man, okay, I've done some things that you know I'm not proud of or I wish I didn't do, maybe I modeled the wrong thing for my kids. Change it so that you are approaching conflict with your children and not against your children. And there are times where it may not always work, but explain it. Talk about it. Be a human in front of your kids by saying, I can make mistakes, I am sorry, I'm gonna use empathy. I know that I'm upset, but you must be upset too. It is upsetting to me at what you've done, but getting yelled at, I can recognize that you didn't like that either. And maybe you're not learning what I'm trying to teach you. So I'm gonna try a different way to share with you why this is important to me. And we may get some resistance, and change doesn't happen like that. It's not an overnight thing. And our kids are gonna be learning to unlearn things from us. So they're learning to unlearn. So they expect, and if they are used to us behaving in a certain way, that becomes a part of how, you know, we when I say survival, I think some people think of it as like um getting a little hairy there. But it it is, it's our way of adapting to our environment. So we have to learn to readapt, and our kids will learn to readapt. And that takes time. And the one thing that I will say is be patient with yourself, be kind to yourself along the way.

SPEAKER_01: 26:59

And and you know, that's something that can be hard, but is that's I'm so I'm glad you glad you brought that in because uh it is very hard or it's very easy, I think, particularly as a mom, to look at situations where you failed and continually like run those loops in your head and and um and not not realize, you know what, yeah, I am human. I made a mistake, I'm gonna do better from here on. Well, Gino, I think this was great. Do you have anything else, any other tips or feedback or anything you want to share with those listening about ways that we can help our kids through conflict situations?

SPEAKER_00: 27:34

You know, I feel like I shared a lot of um maybe some of the core things I really value. I think that continuing our own education on uh, you know, personal growth is is one of the best things that we can do for our children. So just as we talked about the idea of modeling for them, a big part of it is learning to be uh kind to ourselves, learning to evolve and grow on a personal scale, because they will see that. They will see and watch us, especially if we invite them in to understand, hey, this is something I'm working on changing. And we may not want to be seen as, you know, again, not perfect, but when we allow ourselves to be someone who is in the process of continually growing, we're gonna model that. And if I were to ever ask a parent, do you want your kids to just stay fixed or do you want them to be in a place where they can continue to evolve and grow? Most people are gonna say they want them to evolve and grow. So if we take the time to invest in ourselves, in our own emotional education, our own personal growth, that to me is one of the best things that we can do as leaders in our family.

SPEAKER_01: 28:34

I love it. Well, Gino, thank you again for being here. We will have all the links so you can check out um Gino and everything they got going on. They do serve several different states in the U.S. So if you're looking for family therapy counseling, um, they they offer it, but they also have free resources like this to just help us navigate the the world of being a parent, right? Because it's it's constantly changing and something we have to be ready to adapt and evolve with. So, Gino, thank you again for your time.

SPEAKER_00: 29:00

Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to be on, Elizabeth.

SPEAKER_01: 29:03

Hi, and thanks for listening.