SPEAKER_01: 0:38

Welcome back to Speak Out Standout. I'm Elizabeth Green, and today's guest is Dr. Kate Lund. Dr. Kate is an author, a psychologist, and a mom. And she's here today. She's going to talk with us about how to help our kids manage fear of failure and from avoiding the comparison trap that we can fall into sometimes when it comes to kids. So, Dr. Kate, thanks so much for being here first and foremost. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. So, what got you to this point in life where helping parents be better parents for our children is your mission in life? How did you get there?

SPEAKER_00: 1:12

Yeah, so it it actually goes way back, and I'll tell the story really, really close, really, really quickly. Um, I was diagnosed with this medical condition when I was four called hydrocephalus. And it's uh kind of a serious situation. I was in the hospital a lot, coming in and out of the hospital to have this um shunt which circulates the cerebral spinal fluid for one who has hydrocephalus. And it is a great thing because it manages the condition, but it's not a great thing because they break, particularly in childhood. So there was a lot of time in and out of the hospital, looking and feeling different, coming back to school with like half a head of shaved hair, you know, needing to really um figure out how to move forward despite the challenges. And I had a really strong support system. My parents um really helped me to see the kid I was as opposed to the condition I had, and sort of helped me focus on that piece of myself. Obviously, the condition had to be managed, and you know, that was a big, big thing that was going on. But what was there beyond that and how to um, you know, help me focus on those things, the things I could do as opposed to things I couldn't do. And that really kind of formed my foundation. I really believe formed my interest in understanding people, understanding how we overcome challenge. And so, you know, I just was drawn to those types of areas in school all the way through. Went on to get my doctorate um post-college after a short stint working in PR and communications um in Washington and Boston. But uh, you know, I I'm convinced that those early years, those formative experiences are the reason that I'm doing what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_01: 2:58

Yeah, and what an amazing thing that it was obviously a terrible situation to grow up in and you know, to have to uh deal with that of being in and out of the hospital and all that, but to take something like that and it turn out to be a positive for your life, you know, that that's a great thing.

SPEAKER_00: 3:13

Yeah, absolutely. And and yes, I'm very, very fortunate in terms of of how it kind of the trajectory that I found myself on and what I've been able to do with it. Absolutely. All right.

SPEAKER_01: 3:24

So when you when when you work with people or with the like our listeners today, are we talking to parents who have kids who have illnesses or major um things like that in their lives that are previo you know, preventing them from moving forward, but other challenges? Or is this conversation really for any parent because all kids have challenges in one way or the other?

SPEAKER_00: 3:43

Yes, it's for any any parent. Uh, because you know, all of our kids, all of us are gonna have challenges day in, day out. And so yeah, I work with parents um across the domains of, you know, they have kids of all kinds, you know, all different um situations and goals and dreams and all of it. So yes, it's for everybody. Gotcha. Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 4:05

So I was really drawn to the idea of talking about fear of failure because I can very much see this in one of my boys. I have I have two boys and they're complete opposites. And uh one is just he, if he wants to do it, he's gonna do it. There's no stopping him. He doesn't think things through all the time. And then my younger son um is uh uh a lot more reserved and um it it overthinks things sometimes. And I see that in him that if he doesn't think that he is going to be able to do it, he won't try. And so that's why I was really interested in this conversation for me personally, because I want to help him to um, you know, to have more confidence in himself. But that is such a big thing. Like fear of failure, I think every person, every human being could uh has experienced that feeling at some point in their lives, right? How do we take that concept and contextualize it so that we can help our kids through it if we're seeing that in them?

SPEAKER_00: 5:05

Yeah, a hundred percent. And I love how you describe your boys as very different, you know, uh, because I have twins and they also are extremely different. You know, one of them uh will, I think, as well, hold himself back because he's afraid to fail. He's afraid to not succeed at the same level as his brother, right? And so it's it's a um it's a fine line that we have to draw. And, you know, it's so hard because the first thing as parents we really want to try to do is help our kids to appreciate their own unique context, help them to build an awareness of their skills and their their strengths and how those can help them to compensate for you know relative challenges that again, we all are gonna have relative challenges. And so really understanding themselves from the inside out, which comes as a result of an authentic connection with us, their parents, right? And helping to helping them to see that we all have things that you know we're afraid to try, or it might take us a while to take that first step forward, that sort of thing. And I find that uh authentic conversations in a developmentally appropriate way with our kids, about challenges that we've had, you know, whether it be being afraid to take that first step forward, or, you know, whether getting up in front of the class was hard, you know, giving a presentation or what have you. Um, if they see us as having had similar challenges earlier in our lives, like I can share tons of experiences with my boys about I was terrified of speaking in front of the class, you know, terrified. And I've got some some stories about that because my school was very much like public speaking focused. And starting in like fourth grade, we had to memorize the poem and present it in front of the class, and we were like graded and judged in the whole thing. And it was horrific, right? And then there was the point when I was a nun in the sound of music and I had to sing three lines, and right before I sang the lines, my habit fell off. And I walked out onto the stage and everyone was erupted in laughter. And they I think they were just laughing at all the nuns walking out on stage, but I was convinced they were laughing at me. So it was it was, you know, quite quite a thing. And so I think that, you know, in an open and authentic way, in a way that makes sense for our kids where wherever they are developmentally, to share experiences like that is very powerful. Um, but it's really helping them to take that first step forward and to see that we're not always gonna succeed the first time out of the gate. You know, there will be things that we're not gonna, you know, goals that we're not gonna achieve. But how can we try again? What what's another angle that we might be able to, you know, approach this from the next time? And I think kind of helping them to see all of those realities is really, really important.

SPEAKER_01: 8:16

Yeah. And so we're not necessarily taking away the fear of failure. We're helping them understand that failure is inevitable in life. And it's just something that everybody faces at different points and different things.

SPEAKER_00: 8:28

Exactly. And and that the fear is something that we're gonna experience as well. And that yeah, so we're not we're not wiping it out because that's really not possible. We're helping them to navigate through it in a way that makes sense for them and helps them desensitize to those feelings of fear and apprehension the next time.

SPEAKER_01: 8:51

Yeah, that's exactly what we do with with public speaking, like you were talking about. Um, you know, most people are terrified of it, but you have to, if the more you do it, I like the way that you phrase that because I think I always say the more you do it, the easier it gets. But that there is something that's actually happening inside with that fear and like desensitizing it, I think is a great way to put it. What do you say to uh the the parents of teenagers who are like, my kid, any anytime I try to relate to them and tell them, oh, well, I went through this, they say, you just don't get it, mom. You don't get it, mom. Things are different today, mom. What do you say to that parent? How do we have those authentic conversations in a way that's beneficial for them so they don't just brush it off of, oh, that's just mom, she doesn't understand. Yeah, blow you off.

SPEAKER_00: 9:35

Exactly. Well, you know, the the first thing is um trying to really understand what their experience is. So never come at it from the perspective of, oh, right, right, I get it. Well, my experience, you know, not not not coming at it from that direction, but really taking the time to connect with them, whether that's through, you know, conversation or just sitting quietly until they're ready to open up. But you really want to give them the idea, you want to, you want to show them that you that you care what they're you care about their experience and you want to understand the situation from their perspective from the inside out. And then, you know, when it feels appropriate, kind of um weave in aspects of your own experience, you know, because we have to keep in mind that regardless of this regardless of whether the situation might have some similarities, we're all experiences are different. So keeping that piece in mind. So it's it's gotta be kind of on a case by case, how it seems to fit, and that might be different from morning to evening or one child to the next child. You know, it's never gonna, there's never gonna be a one size fits all. So you've got to kind of be really practicing awareness, practicing active listening skills as you're entering into these kinds of conversations. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 10:58

And also I imagine, you know, one of the things we're talking about today is avoiding the comparison trap. But I could also imagine how sometimes they could take it the wrong way if we're saying, well, you know, I did it, you can do it too. Right. You know, like that's not necessarily a motivator. That can also that could diminish their, you know, what they're feeling about it. Like, well, I did it, go do it. You know what I mean? Like that might be the way they're hearing it, which is not what we mean.

SPEAKER_00: 11:25

Right. Definitely not what we mean, you know, and really helping them to see that, you know, all of our experiences are different. We're coming from different places, different kind of levels of competency, all these things, different fears, different ability to um kind of manage through those fears. So definitely not a simple, hmm, I did it. So get out there and do it. You know, that's not, you know, you want to have a much more nuanced conversation around it all, where you're really taking in their experience and their perception of their experience and their roadblocks, that sort of thing. So it's it's yeah, it's a much more nuanced conversation than that.

SPEAKER_01: 12:06

And so kind of sliding into the comparison aspect, I'm sure, you know, you you probably have had a lot of experience with this with having twins. Siblings are always going to feel like, oh, well, he's the favorite, or she gets away with everything. I I imagine, I don't have twins, and I'm not a twin, but I imagine it's amplified in a twin scenario. So, how do parents avoid making their kids feel that comparison at times? Well, you know, Sam is acing math. Why aren't you trying harder? Like, I mean, hopefully we're not saying those things, you know, but that might be what the kid is feeling. So how do we avoid that?

SPEAKER_00: 12:44

Right. Yeah, that's a great question. And it's such an important thing not to do that, not to compare our kids, particularly our twins, you know, who are really most likely coming at the world with very different uh skill sets, approaches. You know, I've got one of my boys is extremely academic, you know, has aced the classroom since, you know, he was in pre-kindergarten. The other one, many more challenges, you know, academically speaking. And it was really, it's been a question of really um embracing who each boy is, you know, his strengths, you know, the one who's so academic has his own set of challenges, you know, in different areas. But really helping the one who perhaps isn't as academic to embrace his strengths in other areas and to really give him the sense that we understand that some of these things are hard, but what can you do to navigate the challenges, circumvent them using your strengths, that sort of thing? So taking a very much of an individualized approach towards fostering each child's, whether they're siblings or twins, each child's potential within their own unique context is the most important thing that we can do as parents.

SPEAKER_01: 14:02

And I imagine that a lot of these conversations are not held together, right? Like individual conversations with the child about their challenges and things. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 14:12

Exactly. Yeah. And, you know, just giving um, you know, for us, giving our son who has those academic challenges a really uh strong foundation in with tools and strategies to navigate those challenges that then he's able to internalize and use moving forward, right? Because we're not going to be able to go in there and solve the challenges for him or do the work for him. You have to help him to figure out his own set of strategies, his own set of his own approach to using the tools that he has. Um, and and doing that in a very individualized way. And, you know, helping his his brother on the other side with the challenges that he has in the same exact way. And so these principles are really important because they're fostering that authentic connection, they're fostering a belief in self for each child to move forward using their strengths. Everyone's gonna have different strengths, everyone's gonna have different challenges. And how can we how can we help each child to move forward using those strengths to compensate for the challenges is gonna build confidence, it's gonna build, build courage, and it's gonna make things that feel hard, feel impossible more doable.

SPEAKER_01: 15:33

Yeah, absolutely. And I think with um, you know, as a mom of two boys, you know, I see their differences and all the time. But I with twins, I have a very good friend who has twin daughters, and and so I have to tell myself, just because they look exactly the same, they are not the same people, you know, they are very, very different. And it's like that, you know, for all of our kids. And so um certainly not wanting them to ever feel less than, especially less than a sibling, you know, that's got to be a very painful experience.

SPEAKER_00: 16:01

100%. Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 16:03

So you mentioned pr giving them the tools so that they can work things out on their own. What are some of like the, I know that's like a huge, huge question there, but what are just some of the things that pop into your head, like the most important tools that we can give our kids when it comes to fear failure or resilience or any of these things that we're talking about, just to help them as they navigate through life. What are some of the things that we could start doing today that would help build them up a little bit so they can lean on those things in the future?

SPEAKER_00: 16:32

Yeah, absolutely. Great question. And so the first thing that I would say, and this is important for us as parents, is to help our kids to manage their stress response. Because we want us as parents, as well as our kids, to be starting the day from this even space. Because if our kids, if we are super stressed out and we're starting from here, and then we hit a challenge, we hit a thing that feels hard, boom, we might escalate to the point of shutdown. So we want to help our kids to develop this even baseline. And we as parents want to develop it ourselves. So I teach those that I work with a really simple technique that was developed by a physician in Boston in the 1970s. It's called the relaxation response. Super simple, but really effective. You come up with a word or a phrase that you find soothing in some way, and you breathe. Five minutes in the morning, five minutes later in the day. This starts to help to internalize what it feels like to be in that stress-modulated space. And that over time will become our baseline. Super important to do that first because in doing that, we're inevitably going to come at things, even things that feel hard or seem impossible, from a little bit more of a modulated space. And it's not gonna escalate us as much. It's gonna make us make it easier to kind of ride those challenges like waves. And so that's the first thing.

SPEAKER_01: 18:08

And so you're saying so it was just sit for five minutes, take five minutes and just just focus on our breathing and a word or phrase that sounds soothing to us, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 18:17

It sounds so simple, but I know it would be hard for simple, and it is a bit difficult, right? There's more like easy button for it. It's like it's practice, it's practice to integrate because what happens is all sorts of things start to flood into our mind, right? Right, right. And we need to kind of not pay attention to them. It's easier said than done, a little bit abstract, but you just really focusing on that word or that phrase as a as a placeholder to move all those chaotic thoughts of like the what ifs and the fears and the this and the that. Keep those silent by focusing. And it takes time and practice, but after about a month of consistent practice, it's amazing what happens. You know, folks really start to develop that um modulated baseline where it's easier to contend with those day-to-day challenges, those day-to-day moments of things that are feeling hard, difficult. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 19:19

So that's I can absolutely see that, especially, and I can understand the importance of it first thing in the morning. Um, you know, and I I guess as a mom, I'm thinking, oh my goodness, mornings are so hectic. You know, I don't have five minutes to sit and do nothing. But, you know, but if I really prioritize that, it would, I can see how that would totally affect the way I handle everything else that happens that morning.

SPEAKER_00: 19:40

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, so there's that. And then the next tool that I work with folks on in this domain, it's called the daily wins exercise. And, you know, sort of our human nature takes us to the negative, like all the things that went badly, or we should have done better, or wow, I was terrible in that presentation. And that I just it's just over. Um, so it's the daily wins exercise. So we can do this as parents, very important as well, but also having our kids do it very powerful. Jotting down either develop developmentally if they're up to it on their own at the end of each day, three to five things that went well on that day, or we can do it with them, you know, if they're a bit younger. So it can be some scaffolding there. But that exercise of intentionally coming up with three to five things that went well on a given day is really, really powerful in neutralizing our lens or maybe shifting it a bit to the to the positive, it helps us to naturally see hmm, that was hard. That situation felt impossible. I didn't do it maybe as well as I would have, but there were some good things too. You know, there were some things that that there were some positives that came out of it. Really powerful in helping our kids and ourselves to move into situations that feel like they're insurmountable challenges or that we're not going to succeed in. Helps us move into those areas in a more balanced type of way so that we can see our potential on the other side. We can see the possibility on the other side of that perceived challenge.

unknown: 21:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 21:22

And I can see how that could be very beneficial to the kids to be able to find the positives within themselves, because like you said, we, you know, we are so hard on ourselves. And if they can daily find a handful of things that they feel good about, I mean, that that's an amazing thing. Of course, we want our kids to feel good. And it's one thing for us to say, oh, you did this great, you did that great. But we're not always going to be there to do that, right? So for them to be able to do that themselves, I can see being really beneficial in in a lot of different aspects of life.

SPEAKER_00: 21:53

Absolutely. So beneficial. And, you know, thinking about it, I I wish that I that I had that when I was, you know, in front of my fourth grade class trying to recite the Shell Silverstein poem, you know, because I don't think, you know, it wasn't really that much of a thing back then. So I was did I did not do a good job and I was very hard on myself. But, you know, if somebody had sat me down and said, okay, you know, let's look at this situation a bit more objectively, you know, and can you can you pick out anything that went well? And you know, that might have been helpful at that point and might have helped me get over my fear of public speaking a little bit sooner. But in any case, these types of exercises where we're helping kids look from the inside out at what the situation was for them and pick out those things that that actually did go well within the context of maybe something that was hard is extremely powerful.

SPEAKER_01: 22:54

And I could also see that opening up um just more conversation, you know? I as I think about you know the conversations I have with my kids at the end of the day. How was school boring? You know what I mean? Like just the the the same old, same one. And sometimes you're really, really stretching to get information out of them. But it's yeah, I'm thinking right now, I wonder what, I guess I'm gonna challenge my kids with this this evening. Um, what will they come up with? And I'm sure that will give me so much more insight into their day that I wouldn't have gotten otherwise if they share with me. I'm guessing like this is one of those things we want them to share, but they don't have to, right? This is something as long as they're internalizing it, is the idea, right?

SPEAKER_00: 23:28

Precisely, absolutely. And I, yeah, I work with um some adolescent soccer players, and this exercise is huge for them. They do it on their own, right? They don't share what they're coming up with with their parents. It's it's kind of like an inside out, internalized exercise. It's very, very powerful and have seen vast shifts in how they're conceptualizing, you know, themselves as soccer players, themselves as students, just all of it, right? Because the benefits of this kind of move across domains. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 24:04

Well, um, I think those were both great strategies. And before we run out of time, do you have like one more little tidbit that you can share that we could stuff in our toolbox for later?

SPEAKER_00: 24:13

Well, yeah, it's kind of a mindset thing. You know, I would really encourage folks, well, two things, to appreciate their own unique context. So us as parents and then helping our kids to do the same, and then never lose sight of the possibility on the other side of the challenge. You know, the possibility is always out there. We just have to sometimes look a little bit harder for it. All right.

SPEAKER_01: 24:37

Well, Dr. Kate, thanks so much for your time today. And if you are interested in learning more about Dr. Kate, we will link to her socials. And you also have a book coming out, right? Do you want to tell us quickly about your book?

SPEAKER_00: 24:47

Absolutely. Yeah. So it's it's called Uh Step Away, The Keys to Resilient Parenting, and really is a book designed to be very accessible, digestible for parents to help us build resilience and thrive within our own unique context, keeping in mind there's no one size fits all. So we address that in the book. All right.

SPEAKER_01: 25:08

Well, you'll all the links for that will be right below or above, depending on where you're watching or listening. So you can easily connect with Dr. Kate and check out her book. Again, thanks for being here today. We appreciate your time. Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00: 25:21

All right, and thanks for listening. See you next time.