SPEAKER_00: 0:38

Welcome back to Speakout Standout. I'm Elizabeth Green, and today's guest is Joe Dillon. Joe is a pioneer in divorce mediation. He's been helping couples navigate the end of their marriages with dignity and financial wisdom for over 17 years. As a child of divorce who witnessed firsthand the devastating impact of attorney-driven litigation on families, he brings a personal experience combined with his professional experience to help couples focus on creating agreements that work for everyone, especially the children. And Joe, we're really glad to have you here. First and foremost, thanks for taking the time to chat today.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11

Yeah, thanks for having me. Looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14

Yeah. And so if you're listening right now, before you're like, oh, I'm not going through a divorce. I don't need this. Stay tuned. Stay tuned. What is happening? We will address a little bit for those of you who might be in that situation towards the end of this conversation. But today we want to, we're going to talk more about how we can um make handle mediation and things like that within our own families. And especially if you are a parent of teens like I am. You know, that's something we have to figure out as we go, right? And so, Joe, you're going to give us some tips and strategies to do that today. So exactly. So kind of just backing up though, um, tell us how did you end up where this is your focus in life? I mean, and obviously you were um a child of divorced parents, and that had a huge impact on you. Is that what steered you to where you're at now? Or did you see like this could be done better? Or, you know, what happened that made you spend your life working with divorcing people?

SPEAKER_01: 2:06

Right, exactly. That's a great question. So it was a confluence of events, right? So, of course, child of a litigated divorce, watched to that whole thing, sat in the back of the courtroom, all the all the stuff you're not supposed to do, right? But when I was in corporate, I was working for publishing companies. And my role, I was the director of sales administration. And what that meant is that I was in charge of getting the customers to sign the contracts. And it was, you know, these large publishing contracts for all these, you know, corporate subscriptions, multi, multi, multi-million dollar subscriptions. And so you've got the salespeople on one hand who they just want their commission. They they made the sale, they're done. I'm out, I'm on to the next thing. When am I getting my check? I also the legal department reports to me, which says, no, no, no, no, no, hold on. We got to look at every T, every I, every comma. We got to make sure this contract is airtight. We're gonna spend the next three years smothering this deal. And so now I'm in the middle going, and the customer is like, hi, I have$30 million I'd like to give you. Would you like it? Yes or no? And I'm like, we really would. Can I get back to you in a minute, right? And so I found myself in the middle of a three-way really negotiation: the customer, the salesperson, the legal department, all who had competing interests. And what I was I was able to do is to be able to get everybody on the same page, get everybody together, get the customer happy, get the salespeople their money, get the legal department calmed down. And I found that I really enjoyed being that middleman, that peacemaker, that kind of, because I had to use different parts of my brain, right? You've got the sales guy, the legal people, the customer person. And so that really led me to a love of mediation and negotiation. And so I started training, uh, took some courses at Harvard and MIT, Northwestern in Chicago, and really dug into the science of negotiation, the theory, the real psychology of it, because it really is, as we were talking about before we came on the air, there really is a lot to it. It's not just two people screaming at each other. And so that's what I hope I can share for frustrated parents today, especially of teenagers, because we talk about rational actors. And sometimes you'll have a teenager, here's a shocking piece of information. They're not necessarily rational actors or actresses. Um, however, we can, using proper negotiation techniques, effectively communicate to pretty much anyone if we know what we're doing. And so that's what I hope we can kind of share a little bit today. Because as you would imagine, divorcing people are not necessarily rational actors either, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 4:35

Right, right. No, that makes sense. So, okay, before we even go down that path, you said one thing that I can imagine some people thinking, um, I'm not gonna negotiate with my kids. I'm the boss.

SPEAKER_01: 4:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 4:46

What do you say? What do you say to that?

SPEAKER_01: 4:49

Because you're looking for the win-win. And we we know in divorce, and you'll also know in your life, is that agreements have a higher rate of compliance when both parties feel like they got something. And you want both parties, what you have to ask yourself in any negotiation is number one question, is this relationship worth preserving? So if you got cut off in the parking lot at the mall, you're not gonna see that person again in the car. So you might shout some expletives at them. But if your neighbor parked in front of your driveway, you wouldn't go, move your car out of my, you know, right? They'd be like, hey, Bob, you know, do me a favor, right? Could you, you know, and so because that relationship's important in a parental child relationship, that's absolutely important. So we want to make sure that we do preserve that relationship and we want that other person to feel acknowledged, heard, validated, and that's where negotiation also comes in. So that's that's what I would say to that.

SPEAKER_00: 5:50

Yeah. And I think as a parent, you know, when our kids are little, they need us to tell them put your shoes on, brush your teeth. Like we need, they need all that instruction. And it is a it is a challenge as a parent to watch your child grow up to where they don't need all of that. They still need our support, but they don't need us to dictate every single move. And it can be hard to step back from that and and start to negotiate with them, you know, like you said, um, in in certain situations. So, okay, well, just a regular example um that I'm sure many of us deal with. Our 16-year-old has a driver's license. And he says, Mom, what time do I have to be home? And we literally just had this conversation last week with my 16-year-old. And I said, Um, 10 o'clock. And he said, Can we do 10:30? Right. But at that point, like it was not a negotiation. It was just no, the the you asked the question, here's what it is. But um, but my husband said, Why don't you tell him to leave that place at 10 o'clock? And so we did negotiate with him. And I never I did not think about it until we were having this conversation. That was a negotiation. He felt like he was getting a little bit out of it. He was still coming home in the timeframe that I wanted him to come home in. Yeah. There was there was no argument. We we were happy. Um, but you know, like I said, I wasn't aware that we were actually like using that process in the time. Um, frankly, it worked. So what do you like? How do we regularly incorporate negotiation with our kids?

SPEAKER_01: 7:18

It's so funny you use that because in I use that as the example. What time do I have to come home? It's because it's we all did it. It's a universal question. And the answers, right? You could have said 4 a.m. and the kids would have been, how about 5 a.m.? Right? Like, because you've always got to get something more. Um, so if I if I may provide some professional critique of your your negotiation, please do. In your example, what happened is you you changed the option, right? You didn't necessarily negotiate. Now he asked and you modified. In a successful negotiation, and and I'm a I'm a fan of this technique, is that you put it on the other person. So in your example, he would have you you'd say 10. Let's say he wanted 11. The next thing you would say is, What's what's his name? You know, we'll call him Bobby or whatever.

SPEAKER_00: 8:07

His name's Sailor.

SPEAKER_01: 8:08

Okay, Sailor. All right, Sailor. So um, why do you want to come home at 11? And usually now, because see what you've done is you've put the onus on the other person. You're not the bad guy, you're not the bad girl, you're not saying no, you're saying help me understand. That's a very powerful thing I want listeners to hear. Okay. You don't sometimes I'll say that out loud. If someone is is like, I need you to move my car, instead of saying why, because why sounds like a five-year-old, right? Why, why, why? Like, hey, I really need you to move your car. Help me understand why. Not in other words, why is defensive, or help me understand, okay, sailor, you know, help me understand why why do you want to come home at 11? Well, usually the like sometimes people are just pushing. Teenagers are pushing limits, right? He might not have had a good reason. So then you don't have to say no. You can say, so it really sounds like you don't need to come home at 11 if I'm understanding you correctly. 10 sounds like it would be okay. Am I understanding you correctly? So that's one way to do it, right? And if he says, well, actually, we're going, we want to go to a movie that starts at nine and it's runtime is an hour and 50 minutes, and you know how there's trailers and credits and all that. I don't think it'll be over until 11. Okay. I can I can work with that, right? So the the trick here is with the teenagers is not saying no and not you, you're not offering all the alternatives in a negotiation. The person who wants something needs to offer you something in return, right? So that would be step one in that case, right?

SPEAKER_00: 9:41

So I love it. I love it. That's right. I'm I'm I'm putting this in my brain. I'm gonna be using these things, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01: 9:47

Absolutely. Help me understand. That's one of my favorite. My my wife is like, you're gonna say it, aren't you? I go, help me understand why we need a 15th dog, you know, for example.

SPEAKER_00: 9:57

Because you do, just because right.

SPEAKER_01: 9:59

She's like, Because we do, I'm like, I'm not seeing it. I'm sorry. 14 is enough. Yeah, we're just kidding.

SPEAKER_00: 10:06

No, that's funny. But I I love it too. But and I feel like sometimes why can, like you said, can come across as um a negative or like I'm gonna argue with you, you know? So yeah, yeah. Even yeah, even it without a tone can can it convey that. So help me understand 11.

SPEAKER_01: 10:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 10:22

So now the other thing, what else you got?

SPEAKER_01: 10:24

I was gonna say the other thing is now in a negotiation, here's your next concept, right? As cliche as this sounds, we're always looking for the win-win. So it's okay, Sailor, I'll tell you what, if I let you stay out to 11, what do I get in return? And it has to be something that you want, right? So, in other words, Sailor might say, Oh, because it'll make me happy. Well, that's great. Yeah, I have an interest in making you happy, but that doesn't necessarily directly benefit me. What is it that I get in return? What can you offer me? Right. And the example I'll use, like sometimes, so we we all have friends like this, right? You have the friend who says, Let's get together on Friday at 5 p.m., we're gonna meet at this bar, then we're going to this pizza place, then we're gonna see this movie. And you're like, dude, I like hanging out with you, but maybe could I get a say in what we do or where we go or what time we meet, right? Like they're just directing the conversation. And so I use that as one of my examples. And I say, okay, if you get into that situation, tell you what, we'll go to your bar, but I want to pick the restaurant, or we'll see your movie, but I want to pick the bar, right? You want to have some win-win. So in Saylor's example, if Saylor was a professional negotiator, Sailor would say, Okay, mom, we'll tell you what, you let me stay out to 11, I'm gonna walk the dog and feed the dog all next week for seven straight days. Mom might say, got yourself a deal, right? Because, you know, and I'm using dogs because in my house we have a dog and my wife loves the dogs and I like the dog, you know, like she would, like I said, fill the house with dogs. But for some reason, it's always me getting up in the morning, letting the dog out, feeding the dog. I'm like, how did this work? You know, like I don't I love the dog, don't get me wrong, but I'm not the dog person, right? So that's what I'd say in that next level of negotiation. It's like, okay, help me understand why you want to stay out to 11. Well, because the movie, this and that. All right, great. If I let you stay out to 11, what do I get in return? What benefit do I receive? And sometimes people will struggle with it. They'll be like, I don't know, what do you want? You say, you know what, I would like you to walk the dog all of next week, uh, you know, or I'd like you to watch your little brother so dad and I can go out to the movies and see that movie that you just saw. And it, and now if somebody says no, then you say, well, then you're saying no to my request, why would I say yes to yours? Right. It's just a logical question. It's not an argument, right? You'd say, and I think part of what happens, Elizabeth, is you, you know, when we were talking about little kids and structure, those are more tasks, right? Put on your shoes, brush your teeth. You got to do that stuff. As kids get older, they're going to encounter more complex situations that require more nuanced thinking. That's what I really feel like. And I'm not trying to get on any soapbox. I think teachers are our nation's heroes. I do feel like kids do need to be taught more nuanced conversation skills, more critical thinking skills, not teaching for tests, you know, all those kinds of things, right? I have great friends who are teachers who just want to, because they have to get the math scores or they're going to get demoted. And you're like, wow, that's terrible, right? How about work through your problem? Show your work, explain to me why one plus one equals three. Let's get into this conversation. This kind of stuff is important, especially as kids now, as they all do, they're going to have to navigate their own world and you're not going to be around them all the time. Being able to have these critical skills and these soft skills are huge, huge uh skills to possess in your tool belt. So this is good that, you know, you're teaching them this, teaching young these skills.

SPEAKER_00: 13:56

Yeah, I think uh the critical thinking component and communication skills, you know, that's a huge part of what we do. Well, it is what we do in my speech and debate coach. And um I I don't I feel like our we are not doing a very good job teaching our kids how to politely or respectfully disagree with people. Yeah, exactly. If you if you even open social media today, I mean, like the the things that you are going to see complete strangers saying to each other is mind-boggling. And and how do we how do we keep our kids from falling into that trap that our generation seems to have fallen into of I'm right, you're wrong, you don't agree with me. Well, I think you're an idiot. You know what I mean? Like that's what we see. That's how we see people communicate instead of negotiating or coming to um a consensus about anything. It could be anything at all. But how do we how can we build those skills in our kids?

SPEAKER_01: 14:48

So we teach them. So a phrase I love, this comes from one of the most famous, like Therese Dyses on negotiation, a book called Getting to Yes. And this was a gentleman who taught first started the teaching at the Harvard program on negotiation. I was like one of the first students at this thing. And then he he wrote this book, he taught this thing at Harvard, and then he it's become a thing in the negotiation world, right? And one of the phrases he uses is conversational jujitsu. And I love, I always think of I picture the robe, I picture the belt, you know, whatever people wear when they do jujitsu. I don't do jujitsu. But the conversation, when you think about it, you know, with jujitsu, as I understand, is more of a martial art where if you're a smaller person, you're using the person's size or advantage against them, right? You're absorbing the blow or you're moving around, right? And so when you've got somebody who's loud or more powerful or who's more authoritative, one of the jujitsu principles is to take the step back, right? Is to absorb the blow. Or in this case, you would step back from the conversation. And then you would examine the position behind the position. That's the key lesson here. So I could look at you, and and you know, Elizabeth is like, Joe, God, you know, pick up your shoes. And, you know, how come you always do this? And we never go to my restaurant, and why can't we go to my family's for Thanksgiving? And then you're just on me, right? And I'm like, I could come back, right? I could come back at you, or I could take that step back and I go, hey, what's going on here? Right. I could look for the position behind the position. Why is this person coming at me? Why is this person coming in hot here, right? They wow, I didn't know you. Boy, you didn't tell me somebody binged your car at the, you know, at the supermarket. Of course, you should you're be in a terrible mood. I didn't have that information until I looked behind why you were coming at me. And then you just blurted it out. And I'm like, oh, geez, I'm so sorry. Are you okay? Like now the temperature of the conversation has come down. I've gone behind the position. I I got to the root of it. I got hit in the parking lot. That's not good. I got to go through the insurance and do all that. Now it makes sense, and we can move on to what the real issue is, right? Of whatever it was we were talking about. So again, for listeners and when, you know, teenagers, especially being very hormonal and very, you know, top of mind, right? It's like that movie Inside Out. I love that movie inside out. You know, and it's like you think about it, it's like, well, why is this kid coming in hot at me? Or why are they freaked out? What are they so upset about? And then it's one of those, hey, listen, you know, you seem really upset. What's going on? Like it's just a genuine question. Like, oh, you know, and and uh we've talked a little bit about this, right? In terms of, you know, society and what's happened is that for me, you know, there was no social media when we were in school. There was none of this, like, you know, the worst thing somebody would pass a note written down to somebody, right? We didn't have that speed of communication that kids are dealing with that they're not wired to deal with right now, all this information coming at them. So to learn how to slow down, take a step back, take a deep breath, and look behind the position is another powerful skill you can teach your kids, right? It's don't react. You want to be in control, you don't want to be reactive. You want to be the person who's guiding this conversation, and the way to do that is exactly that. So that's another powerful technique when somebody's coming at you, take the blow, step back, say, Hey, what's going on with you? This isn't like you. You know, you're usually a really nice person. Like, I've never seen you act like this. You're feeling like everything okay? I like I'm I'm genuinely concerned about you. And and people will push back and then, but if you keep at it, if you keep de-escalating, eventually, like little kids, right? You remember we all probably did this when we were kids. I'm gonna hold my breath until I get what I want. Yeah. And your parents are like, go for it, right? Because you're gonna, this is gonna last all five seconds and you know, whatever. So good time, Joe. Have a throw your tantrum, and then we'll go back to the supermarket. Um, and that's it, right? So I think that's part of what we want to teach kids as well as that, you know, de-escalate, calm as a parent, do the same. Eventually, they'll come around if you just keep calm, right? Just keep calm.

SPEAKER_00: 19:03

I I think that is so, so important. That's something I've learned a lot in my life um over the past few years. With I told you my oldest is 16, and he is very much like me. And we um want to have the last word. And one of the biggest blessings I've gotten out of doing this podcast from the past couple of years is talking to experts like you and being able to implement these things in my life. And I will say for sure, not being reactive, pausing, all of those things um have prevented so many issues where he was frustrated with me, and I was probably frustrated with him too, but from it going to the next level. And who doesn't want to be seen, you know, to be like, hey, what's going on? You know, I mean, everybody wants to be to feel like somebody cares about what's going on in their lives. So such a great way to de-escalate.

SPEAKER_01: 19:51

Yeah, and that goes to the acknowledge and validate, right? Because what's a classic line that you hear from teenagers? You don't understand, you don't get it. And you're like, okay, let's, you know, and I'm I tend to be a little bit of a sarcastic person. Like I have a very kind of off-beat sense of humor. So when somebody says that to me, I go, well, how old are you? Uh, 16. How old am I? You know, 50 is it? Okay. So let's do some math. At some point, let's how how old was I 49 years ago? How was I 48 years ago? And then I count and I go, Oh, that's odd. I was 16 at one point too, wasn't I? So guess what? I actually do know what it's like to be you, right? And and not that you're gonna go through that whole exercise, but it's acknowledging and validating and saying, look, I don't know what it's like to be you, Sailor. You literally, right now. But I do know what it's like to be 16, to be frustrated, to have gotten my driver's license, and to not have my parents let me stay out late. Trust me, your grandma, your grandpa did the same thing to me, but in their world, they said over my dead body and then took my car keys. At least you and I are having a conversation, right? And then I got locked in my room and my phone got taken away, you know. So this could have gone worse for you, pal. So it's so it's so true.

SPEAKER_00: 21:10

Yeah, so well, let's a little bit of a different spin on this. Let's talk about the parent who has kids that cannot get along. And um, I we've I've been through this phase with my kids. They're four years apart. Now they're is 16 and 12, they just kind of do their own thing, they have their own friends and all that. But when it was when they were younger um and they had each other and were around each other all the time, you know, they couldn't get along over anything. What do you tell the mom who's listening that's I'm tot so tired of my kids fighting? How can I mediate situations instead of being like, you guys are arguing over the color of a plate? Come on now, you know? Like, I mean, right? How do we mediate this for our own sanity, but while also teaching them how to disagree with someone? And you know, because obviously we're gonna disagree, and that's okay. It is the way we do it, it is important.

SPEAKER_01: 21:57

Right. So, in that we have a phrase in mediation that says, don't get in the box. And what does that mean? So, a lot of times, as you would imagine, in the divorce space, I become parental because this couple has been arguing for however many years, not getting along. So now they want to tell me about what a terrible person there's soon to be accidents, right? And the other one says, Well, I have to defend that. I have to tell Joe what a terrible person they are. And and this dynamic does play out frequently. And in that case, the phrase not getting in the box basically says, I'm this is your argument. This is an old argument, this is your argument. I'm not engaging. Now, I want to turn this problem around. So, to your example, in this example, mom or dad is the arbiter. They're the judge, they're the one who they are pleading their case to, and they view that individual as the authority figure who will make the decision. The way to turn that around is to give ownership of the problem to, in this case, the two kids, and say, okay, I'm gonna go in the other room, and here's what's gonna happen. Let's use your plate example, right? You're not gonna eat your snack until you guys can agree on what color plate to use. Let me know when you figured it out. And you walk away. And by not engaging, and and this happens with divorcing couples all the time, they'll try it a few more times, right? Kids, adults, everybody will push, push, push to see what they can get away with. When you take your ball and you go home, it's not that you're you're being dismissive, right? You're just again taking the temperature of the conversation down, saying, hey, no problem. I'm gonna go eat my snack in the other room because I've decided on a blue plate. When you guys are ready and you figured out what color you agree on, what color plate you're gonna have, I'll be happy to come in and prepare your snack. Let me know when you're done. And you walk out, right? And that's it. And it's it's hard because you wanna, you see the conflict, you see the pain, the suffering, the upset. But that's a powerful lesson that says, this is a problem of my own creation, and I need to own it and resolve it rather than someone's going to always fix it for me. And that's another lesson in independence. I'm an only child, so I got a lot more of that because I had no choice. You know, my parents were divorced, my mom worked late. I had to figure out how to do X, Y, and Z. And I'm actually really much better off for it because I learned to cook, I learned how to do laundry by myself because I had no choice. And in this case, you don't have to abandon your kids. But this way, you know, you're giving them ownership of even, you know, small, small things. And then this way they know you're not the arbiter. If something goes wrong, they're not going to come running to you. They're going to understand that they need to work it out amongst themselves.

SPEAKER_00: 24:46

Yeah. And you're right. You said it's hard. And it is so hard. We don't want to see our kids unhappy ever, right? And it's so much easier just to jump in and fix it. But if if we consistently do that, what do we do when they're 18 and they disagree with a grade that their senior reading or English teacher gave them? You know? Sure. Right. Yeah.

unknown: 25:07

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 25:07

We have to have them practice. So, um, and uh you're giving fantastic um strategies here. And I'm sorry, I'm like just shooting you all kinds of different things, but you're making me think of different scenarios. Yeah, go for it. Let's go back to like the teenage, and um maybe our um our sailor is having um a disagreement with his best friend, and they're not speaking right now. And of course, mommy is gonna be like, well, let me text his mom, which is not what I need to do, right? No good mom, no way. I don't want to see him sad, and I could help them figure this out. What should I do instead?

SPEAKER_01: 25:47

Yeah, so in that case, the the this goes back to that whole problem behind the problem, but really this is more wait when we think about in mediation, right? We uh this is this will sound pretty funny, but there's the primary, there's the secondary, and then there's the tertiary. So when you think about like peeling an onion, right? You you know, you peel the onion, first you get that that the brown skin off the thing, then you get that weird little membrane thing off whatever the heck that is. And then usually the onion's kind of green, so you peel the first layer off, right? Now you got your onion, right? And then you're like, well, there's that core in the middle that I don't want that on my sandwich. And so you cut the thing and you pull that, right? And you're digging through this onion, right? Going layer by layer by layer. In this example, when you're thinking about with your as a parent and you're thinking about the kids, you're only you're an outside observer. You only see one side of it, probably, and you only see it from your kids' perspective. And of course, it's your goal to not be neutral to take that side. As you step back and you try to explore what the issue is, you can be more constructive. So in this example, you might say, hey, not what's going on, but like I noticed you're not talking to, you know, Sailor's not talking to Taylor. I'm gonna use Taylor so that we can really trip all over our tongues. Sailor, hey, I you know, I noticed you're not talking to Taylor. Stop right there, right? We have a tendency to want to fill in the blanks. Silence, good tool. People open up when they're quiet. There's quiet, there's space for them to talk. Yeah. Want to talk about it? You know, and then quiet, right? And yeah, so as you you pull this out, and in these kinds of examples, this is where people again, this goes to the empowerment, and this goes to the power of you words versus I words in a negotiation. You can imagine heated conversation in a divorce. You always do this, yeah, right. And as I kind of mentioned, I'm a little sarcastic about really, they've never emptied the dishwasher in 28 years. Ever. Really? Wow, that's amazing. People are like, either this guy's crazy, or okay, maybe that was a little hyperbole, right? You know, okay, so right, but that's it. And so in this case, if you're talking to Sailor and you know he's not talking to Taylor, it might be a function of, well, you know, I've had that happen to me, or I I I know how you feel, or I, I, I, right? It's not like you should call him, you should do this. Um, I, you know, da-da-da-da. It's again, uh, and then the person doesn't feel as alone, they start to open up, and then you start exploring solutions together. The then you turn it around and you say, Well, what do you think you could do to repair the relationship? Open-ended, right? You want to get them talking because you know, a lot of times, right, we do this even as adults, right? We talk ourselves into something, but then given enough space and time, we talk ourselves out of it because we know in our head, right? We go in all gung-ho and say, Yeah, it's a really great idea. I'm gonna buy this blank. And then you get enough space and time and you start talking about, well, I don't really need a new car, my car is fine, or this car's expensive, or da-da-da-da. The insurance is gonna go up, forget it. Right. And that was maybe the right decision not to buy the new car. And in that world, but you needed the space, you needed the time, and you needed somebody to prompt you so you could come up with the solution and talk yourself in or out of it, right? So, in that example, you know, he's like, hey, I know how you feel. I've been there, I've had friends too. You're not trying to solve the problem, solution, you know, open-ended. How do you think you could address this? And then in this example with Sailor Urban Taylor, you know, you'd want Sailor to communicate to Taylor in a way that's directed towards him. So Sailor would say, Hey, listen, Taylor, you know, and I know this is probably hard for for teenagers, but I I didn't appreciate what you said to me the other day. It hurt my feelings. Or I, I, you know, uh, I'm sorry if I came across like I was being a jerk, but I don't think what you said was was warranted. Right. And it's not you did this because you put some, whoa, I'm on the defense. No, I didn't. All right, but it's like I, I, I, and boy, that's the hardest one because when we're escalated, the lizard brain kicks in, all we want to do is go, well, blame, deflect. You did this, you're terrible. You're it's like, well, guess what? In every argument, in every situation, in every negotiation, there's two people, and you both have an active hand in it. It takes two to tango. So if you and your spouse are in an argument, or you and your friend or your neighbor in an argument, it's not them, it's you collectively, right? And you need to own what it is you can own and what you can do. What it is you played, what role you played in it. And then when doing that and going first, that usually puts the other person at ease. And then they're more likely to go, Yeah, I guess that was kind of a jerk. It's like it's okay. You know, and you and you clear the air and move on, right?

SPEAKER_00: 30:53

So I love it. I think that's fantastic advice. And I just wanted to circle back to something you were saying, the power of the pause. I was literally just talking with somebody about an hour ago about this, um, and how it's so important to use that when we're communicating with our kids. I used to be a news reporter and in journalism school, I learned the power of the pause. And it feels awkward to have silence, and people want to fill the silence. And if you ask a question and they don't respond or they give you a one-word answer, if you fill it in, okay, then you're you're controlling the conversation. And I always say the best sound bites I got, the most authentic sound bites I always got. Whereas if I sat there for a couple of seconds, as awkward as it is, and then that person's like, okay, well, I guess I got to keep talking. And they do. And it's the same thing with parenting. If we actively do that, that's sometimes when our kids, and sometimes the kids will continue and sometimes they don't, but when they do, I have found I get so much more information and it goes down a path that maybe I wasn't envisioning that it was gonna go down. It's just valuable conversation.

SPEAKER_01: 31:56

Yeah. Yep. And silence is also a powerful tool, not only for that purpose, but also it can be used to explain that you're showing this person respect. A lot of times in an argument, it comes across as disrespectful, right? We're screaming at each other, or I'm trying to convince you or tell you you're wrong. And when I've done this and I do this with folks, you know, friends, family, whatever, and I'm quiet. And sometimes it'll go on for 30 seconds or a minute, and I'm really good at the quiet game. And then they do this, right? Like they're waiting for me to talk. And I'm like, I was like, no, no, no, no, take all the time you need to answer the question. I I genuinely want to hear your answer. And it's really hard to argue with a statement like, and then they think you're being sarcastic. Now, no, I realize that, and this is a true statement about myself, being the kind of person that I am, I'm very quick on my feet. I have to be. It's a you know, it's a divorce mediator, it's survival mode a lot of times, right? But I'm like, look, I realize that not everybody is an off the top of their head communicator. Some people need to hear the question, pause, frame their answer, take a few minutes to formulate a response. And I want to give you the space to do that. And it again, you're somebody is going to be arguing against themselves, right? They're going to be arguing against the fact that you respect them. They're going to be arguing against the fact that you genuinely want to listen to them. In that case, you have an irrational actor, and like, I don't know what to tell you. But in my experience, 95% of people are rational actors if you get past the irrational, oh my God. You know, then of course, there's always that bucket of people who are, you know, they're just not, they're not playing with the full tech. And you're like, okay, there's just this is, I have to walk away from this. And in negotiation, we have that. We call that a Batna, best alternative to a negotiated agreement, meaning, okay, if we can't negotiate an agreement, what's my Batna? Why really have to think long and hard is if I don't, you know, if I don't get this, you know, buy deal the deal on this car for, you know, X thousands of dollars, then, well, that's okay. I already have a car, right? So I can go into that negotiation strong, knowing if I don't get this car for a dollar, I'm not buying it, right? Because I already got one. But if I just flipped my car and it's destroyed and I have to get to work tomorrow, now I really have to change my negotiation strategy. And so going in and talking to people and understanding them, especially teenagers who are kind of volatile, you got to say to yourself, well, what am I dealing with here? Right. And what the relationship, what's what is the absolute necessity that I have to come out of this conversation with some concrete answer, right? And all of this stuff plays as you're you're having it and as you get better at it, you know, you're constantly shifting and evaluating and using different techniques to see where in the negotiation you are, because they all go through these peaks and valleys, right? You just have to know where you are in the conversation and which techniques to apply. And that takes a lot of practice. So don't feel bad if this is confusing right now. You'll get there.

SPEAKER_00: 35:00

No, it's interesting that there is so much to negotiation. I'd never considered it before this conversation. So I can see why you like it. I mean, it does sound, it does sound fun, exciting.

SPEAKER_01: 35:10

It's fun, yeah, it certainly is. And people are like, you're messing with me. I'm like, if if that's your opinion, you know, like that's you're you're entitled to feel however you'd like to feel. That's the ownership. There you go.

SPEAKER_00: 35:25

Well, this has been really enlightening. And but before we go, if you have just I would love or if you would just address this too, if we have time. Yeah. For the person who's listening that is potentially going through a divorce or just a rough situation, their marriage that's maybe leading to that. What would be the one piece of advice that you would drop on them right now?

SPEAKER_01: 35:44

Don't listen to your friends and family. Don't. It they are the absolute worst when it comes to this kind of stuff. If you're going to seek any kind of advice, talk to a therapist, a counselor, a mediator, you know, if you're in that path, folks all have their own opinions. And as we have been talking about today, they want to tell you what you should do. And at the end of the day, when you don't have the quiet, you don't have the peace of mind, you can't hear that little voice that tells you, you know what to do. It's inside you. We all, we all like I say to my clients, I'm like, unless you were raised by wolves, okay, you all know the difference between right and wrong. So when you're screaming this or you're screaming that, I have to believe so that I can sleep at night that you know what you're saying really isn't true and is unfair, right? Like that you're screaming, yelling. And so when you get in these situations, when people are coming at you, you can't hear that voice, you can't hear that truth, you can't know what you know what you really want. So that's where you step back. If you're having these problems, you know, maybe casually over coffee with a friend, but don't really involve them. Go explore this in a quiet space with a therapist, with a professional, because it's a decision that really warrants discussion and thought and you know, really quiet time. And that's where folks like myself, now I'm not a mental health professional, but counselors, therapists, that's exactly what they're trained to do. Elicit questions, get you to think, really explore those issues. And then when you're ready, if you think that's the decision you want to go in, great. Otherwise, I think again, I'm always a fan with people to try to salvage relationships. This person can also, like we've learned today, I don't want to, I never want to make it, you know, binary. There's a right way and a wrong way to have conversations because they're so nuanced. But there is a better way to have conversations. And it's not telling your spouse they're a lazy slob or a useless jerk or whatever it is, right? It's it's the I feel this, I this, I, I, I, and talking to someone in a professional space can help you frame the conversation and give you that safe space, right? So yeah, definitely worth thinking about before you go down that path. We always know, I'll leave you with this the people who leave us voicemails at three in the morning on our company's, you know, switchboard saying, I want a divorce. We don't call them back. We we just we don't. We just not this is you got drunk or you had an argument, or I don't know what you did, right? But you haven't given this the thought it was it deserves and requires.

SPEAKER_00: 38:15

Yeah, I can absolutely understand that, of course. It's all things are always look different in the morning. They always oh they do. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 38:23

Absolutely. Right on.

SPEAKER_00: 38:25

Well, Joe, this has been a really, really interesting and helpful conversation. And if people are interested, we'll make sure we link to everything in the show notes, but go ahead and tell people where they can find you, what you offer in case anybody wants to chat more.

SPEAKER_01: 38:37

Yeah, so best place is probably our website, equitablemediation.com. And if you're thinking about, you know, going through a divorce, we have a learning center and it's a ton of you know free resources, blog posts, videos, podcasts, you know, downloads, all this kind of stuff, checklists for planning for divorce, you know, we just always feel like information is important. And again, it's that giving you the information so you in your own quiet time can make your own informed decision and then come to us when you're ready. And you know, we do practice in multiple states. So if you go on our website, it shows you where we practice. And and and really, I think the the key takeaway for everybody is it's uh think before you react. Just like we've been talking about here, right? Great conversations are not built on screaming matches, they're built on uh intentional, carefully chosen words, pauses, spaces, and and and having the ability to do that in a conversation is is priceless. And I can guarantee your listeners that whether it's with your teenagers, your spouse, your coworkers, if you, you know, if you put some of these techniques into play, you will have much better relationships and much more preventive conversations.

SPEAKER_00: 39:52

And what more could we want and need in today's days, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 39:58

100%.

SPEAKER_00: 39:59

Well, Joe, thank you so much for being here. And again, we'll link to everything. So if you're listening or watching, it'll be in the show notes so you can check it out. Thanks for listening, everyone.