SPEAKER_01: 0:38

Welcome back to Speak Out Standout. I'm Elizabeth Green. And today's guest is Kimberly Long. Kimberly is a mom of two, a special education teacher, and a chapter leader of Mothers Against Media Addiction in South Carolina. And Kimberly, we're really excited to have you here. Thanks for taking some time to chat with us today.

SPEAKER_00: 0:54

Thank you for having me. It's a really important topic.

SPEAKER_01: 0:57

And before we dive in, I just wanted to give a heads up to anybody who's maybe listening with little ears around. We are talking about some adult conversation or adult topics that we might not want little ears to hear about. So just uh just be aware of that if you're listening with kids around. So um so Kimberly, your focus in among many things, right? Being a mom, being a teacher, and all of that, you are also very heavily invested in mothers against addiction. How did you get to this point? Why is this important to you?

SPEAKER_00: 1:23

Yeah, so it actually happened pretty organically. So I've been a teacher for 20 years. Um, my wheelhouse is early childhood, and that's where I started with all this. So I started to notice over time that the students coming to us were more and more addicted to screens. And as I noticed this, I also saw an uptick in aggression and a decline in resilience, uh, emotional regulation, coping skills. Um, it it got so so the story I like to tell a lot is when I was teaching pre-K special ed, and we were talking about shapes. And I held up a rectangle and I said, All right, everybody, what shape? And they were like, phone. So um like, wow, this is very prevalent when they see that that is the image. Um, and so I started looking into it because at that point I was also becoming a mom. I have an 11-year-old and a seven-year-old and started to try to learn a little bit more about how the brain develops, which has always been an interest of mine, just being an educator. Yeah. And I was really concerned by what I was reading and finding out um, that really were basically reshaping the brains of these young children during their most pivotal developmental years. So that's how I started. Well, then as my child, my oldest, has gotten older, he is 11 years old, so he'll be in middle school next year. And I started getting, you know, the mom guilt that you get when they start asking for phones and hence how he feels isolated and all the friends are on this group chat, and he doesn't have a phone. And um, and so around that time, just through my legislative advocacy, um I'm also the district rep for my area of Palmetto State Teachers Association. So I do um I do a lot, I have a lot of correspondence with legislators through that. And that's how I met Representative Guffey and started following his story, um, learned about um the what happened to his son as a victim of sex tortion, um, and then started to study and follow his legislation. And then all of that beget um learning about mothers against me addiction, and decided I was so passionate about it that we really needed to get the message out there. And so I started a chapter here in South Carolina.

SPEAKER_01: 3:36

So I know that's a mouthful, but it's been it's been a journey. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I'm glad you're doing what you're doing because this is, you know, these are conversations that we absolutely need to have. And I think that so I mean, I have so many questions for you. And we I know we don't, we only have so much time. But my first thing is though, screens aren't themselves are not bad, right? Like, I mean, technology has done so much for us. My entire business, I teach thousands of kids around the world, all virtually. We wouldn't be able to do that without technology. That being said, there are especially the things that we need to be aware of and limitations that we need to set and all of that to protect our kids because it absolutely is an addiction, you know. I mean, there's no doubt about it, right?

SPEAKER_00: 4:21

Yeah, actually, when they look at when they compare brain scans uh for a technology addicted teen, it actually looks very similar to the brain scan of someone who's addicted to opioids. Oh my goodness. So there really is a true addiction, and a lot of it has to do. Um, I'll try not to get too long-winded about it, but a lot of it has to do with the way the brain works. So when you are on a screen and you're getting a notification, and we're talking like this could be a one to two year old, you know, pressing the button to listen to YouTube videos. I mean, on a kid tablet, all the way up to a 17-year-old getting Instagram or Snapchat notifications. What it does is it releases dopamine, which is a feel-good chemical in your brain. So when you're getting that free-fed uh feel-good release, what happens is when you have to actually put effort into getting that dopamine, which is, you know, in the early years, it's learning how to play with a new toy, or for toddlers, pulling up on a couch, or uh school age would be um making a new friend on the playground. Teens would be asking out someone you're interested in to the homecoming dance. All of those require effort and skills. So when you are free feeding the brain, that feel-good dopamine without that effort, when kids or teens actually have to put effort into something, they become very grumpy, anxious, depressed quickly because the brain has literally been wired to receive that chemical. So it's actually is truly a scientific thing. It and it mirrors addiction. It's like a person addicted to a substance not having it.

SPEAKER_01: 6:00

Yeah. And I think that, you know, we're it finally at this stage where technology was so new, right? Like we didn't have it when we had we're kids, and then we get it and we're like, this is great, and we give it to our kids, and we're just now really starting to see these, you know, downstream effects of this. So we we oftentimes when we think about uh dangers with screens, we think about stranger danger and thinking as long as my kids are not on Snapchat or Instagram or these places where they could potentially be groomed, that they're that they're safe, that they're okay. But that but that's not not the case anymore. Now we know this now, right? That that's not the case.

SPEAKER_00: 6:36

We know that's not the case. And and that's for multiple reasons. I mean, it YouTube things can be hidden in YouTube videos. I mean, even when you looked at, I remember when my child was younger and like Dora the Explorer, there would be, you would think it was a Dora of the Explorer video, and then it would all of a sudden go into like cursing tirade. People like to infiltrate kids kids' videos. But then of course, if they get older, we have to worry about, you know, we say the P word, but um, you know, sexual content. And even if they're not on Snapchat, Instagram, you also have to be concerned about their peers because that's that's the hard thing. You can you can limit it, but the peers come over to your house. I mean, as a mom, that's tricky for me. Do I I can't really tell someone else's child they can't have their phone because number one, it's not my right. And number two, I don't want a parent to think I'm restricting their child for communicating with them while they're in my home. Right. Um, so you have to be very vigilant, even when considering what other parents allow. I mean, it it's I know now that we are school or cell phone free in schools, it's a little better, but I've heard teens say that you know, the phones and the have the phones out in the bathroom, and boys would be watching sexual content in the bathrooms and passing pictures back and forth. So um, you know, texting itself, any kind of messenger app can lend itself to trouble. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 8:00

And so, okay, since we're talking about that, this is what I want to ask. What is what's some people would be like, oh, really? Okay, they saw a video. What's what's the big deal? You know what I mean? Like, I mean, we're not talking about like 10-year-olds, right? But we're saying, like, oh, my 16-year-old, okay, somebody saw a video. Yeah, I don't really want him to see it, but what's the big deal? Is it a big deal?

SPEAKER_00: 8:20

It's a big deal. It's a big deal. Well, for a lot of families, it's a big deal because it goes maybe against what their family values are. That goes without saying. But it's also a big deal because the teen years are so critical for brain development and so critical for setting the scene for kids um naturally detaching from their parents. So when they're exposed to that kind of material, what it does is it gives them a hardened, false idea of what intimacy looks like and what it should look like. Again, if we want to go back to that dopamine chemical release, right? Normally a boy has to ask a girl out and you hold hands and you're nervous and you go through all that, and sometimes you you're turned down, you go through all that um social interaction that's sometimes positive, sometimes negative, but is necessary to make you who you are. They're not they're not doing that. Instead, they're like, well, now I don't have to ask a girl out. I can just access, I can get my needs met through a screen. And so it's it's false. It's a disembodied way to look at intimacy. So when you're doing that and you're in the those pivotal developmental years and you're um going through puberty and and even a little bit past puberty and into young adulthood, it sets up unrealistic expectations for the dating world. And they're finding that this increased screen use is actually causing kids to be delayed and even getting their driver's licenses and moving out of the home and forming relationships. I mean, we might think, oh, it's good that they're waiting to later to date, but the problem is they're not doing that trial and error that's like a such a pivotal part of growing up because they can just access it for free. And then I can imagine when they do have their first encounter and they've all they've been watching is sexual content that's so curated, that's not real life. And so, I mean, there actually can be sexual dysfunction that can come from that, even beyond the mental part of it.

SPEAKER_01: 10:20

And it goes and goes down that same path of addiction, right? I mean, we're seeing like kids becoming addicted to sexual content, and you know, which was never the case before, right? When we were kids, right? Like maybe somebody would have a magazine that you can. I know, you know, but it's just so different. So so what do we how do we stop it? Like you said, we can lock down or we could say you're not gonna have a phone or you're gonna have a phone, but you're gonna have these restrictions. But there's still, like you said, they're in the outside world around uh people who don't have these restrictions. So how do we protect our kids?

SPEAKER_00: 10:54

And you just made the argument why I believe the government does have a compelling interest to intervene here. Because um what's happening is even if you are a very engaged parent, like you said, it exists in the world, even the best parent. And with technology moving so quickly, even though you try to stay engaged, it's hard to keep up with all the loopholes and things. So personally, I believe, and this is an initiative of Mothers Against Media Addiction, we think that we need default settings for minors on social media and online. So, what that would look like is the parents would have to opt to their child in if they're um 16 or younger. The parents would have to opt them in to all of the potential sites that could have this material, all the apps to social media itself. And that way parents can be more involved and engaged. I have to think that most parents, if they know better, will do that. So many just don't realize this is happening because it's become so normalized. So I think so. Number one, I think that we do need some legislative intervention here. And number two, um, with mama, another part uh aspect of what we do is just an education initiative, letting parents know. We just had an event last November, uh, Fort Mill School District sponsored it. And Mama, my chapter of Mama, partnered with Less Than Three Foundation, which is um was founded and run by Representative Brandon Guffey in Rock Hill. And so we showed a screening of the film Can't Look Away. It's a really hard watch, but it talks about these grieving families and their um battle to try to get legislative protections and hold social media companies accountable for what's happening to kids, the damage that's happening to youth. I mean, even causing death in some other teams. So I think letting parents know of these risks and what to look out for is another critical part of it. So I think it's a twofold intervention.

SPEAKER_01: 12:50

Yeah. So, and and and you're bringing up a lot of great points because there are certain things I have as a mother have worried about with letting my kids have phones. And a big part of it is bullying or um, or and I'm a mom of boys, so it's not as prevalent, but it still is prevalent of uh your self-image, you know, all of those things that we especially see the problems that that's causing in teen girls, you know, and posting images and expecting so many likes and not getting it and all of that. But there's it's more than just that. Like, and so I'm glad you've brought up these other points because those are the things that initially I was worried about with my kids. I never years would have worried, though, or imagined that they would be easily accessing sexual content on a phone, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 13:34

You should be worried about those other things too, because the rates of depression, anxiety in teens have exploded since 2010. So you should be, and I'm and I'm kind of glad you brought up the girls versus boys, because that's actually really interesting too. So the research shows that girls are slightly more impacted, um, but it's impacting our young men too. So girls tend to be um, you mentioned the bullying, tend to be relational. And so when they're aggressive with each other, it's relational. It's a very it's it's a no-brainer to be um relational online because you can easily make fun of a girl or say, oh, nice eyebrows, or I mean, it can be subtle shade, which is how girls fight. Right. Um but it's also and and then we also have to talk about eating disorders and self-image, like you mentioned. Um, one interesting thing is with the algorithm. So with Instagram, for example, a girl might search cute animals or fun dresses for homecoming, and it'll show some material with that, but then they'll um interject some negative kind of stuff. And it could be something to do with eating disorder or um body image. And here's the thing it will feed them more of what they watch and what they look at. So it's not related to the search, it's what they watch because that's how these companies and apps make their money. So say a girl pauses and watches something with a thin model, and then and then it's gonna feed her more of that. So there's that with girls, and then with boys, it's also almost borderline a crisis because boys typically are more expressive and extroverted and more um outward with their with their ideas and feelings and their depression or pain, or even the way they fight is usually more outward. Well, what's happening is because kids have become so um, and I use the word disembodied before, but their childhood and teenures are so disembodied behind a screen that boys are losing that and they're becoming more withdrawn and hidden away. And so they're not developing those traits that we typically would see in a healthy young boy, which is gonna help them eventually, you know, leave the nest. So it impacts them both in different ways. And obviously, you know, you can't paint every girl and every boy with the same brush. I'm sure there's some crossover there, but we're looking at trends, you know, among the genders, and that's what we're seeing. And they're both dangerous in different ways.

SPEAKER_01: 16:05

And this is all directly increased with with social media, right? The the number of people in social media, we see those lines directly increase together. The number of people on social media, the more people with these issues, especially teens and kids, but not just teens and kids. Obviously, this affects adults in the same way, but you know, as moms, our goal is to try to protect our children from this as much as we can.

SPEAKER_00: 16:26

Have you read The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Heid? I it is on my list. I have heard a lot of people talk about that. Yeah, it's an excellent book. And um, he goes through the research and talks about, he even looks at different countries, he looks all across demographics to find any other reason why this is happening. But it's really, I mean, if you look, like you said, you mentioned the graphs and the trend lines, they really are um neck and neck with when phones, smartphones came out, when it became commonplace for folks to have smartphones, and when social media became so prevalent, the rates just skyrocket. And I guess it's across socioeconomic status, it's across race, ethnicities, and even across other nations.

SPEAKER_01: 17:07

Yeah. So what do you say to the mom who they're not in this down this road yet? They've held off, they don't have cell phones begging for them, right? You know, what do you what do you say to that mom? When when is a, I guess it's never safe, but like when is a better time to let our kids go down this path?

SPEAKER_00: 17:27

So the rule of thumb, um, there is an initiative called Wait Until Eighth. Um, this is also mirrored in Jonathan Heid, who's the author of Anxious Generation and his research. Um, but they they want you to wait till eighth grade if you can for a smartphone and then till 16 for social media use. Those are the guidelines. Now, obviously, as as parents, we know our children, um, these are just guidelines. So, um, based on the research and the way the brain develops and what we know about um different milestones for kids. We think of milestones with babies, right? But right kids all the way up through young adulthood have milestones. I mean, your frontal lobe isn't developed till you're at least 25.

SPEAKER_01: 18:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 18:07

So all of these are just as just as critical as those early years. Um, but yeah, I would say eighth grade and then 16 is the general rule of thumb.

unknown: 18:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 18:16

And I know they're also like my youngest son is 12, and he has had a phone now for a couple of years. And um, and is I sometimes I think, oh, we shouldn't have done that. But he has a little job and he makes money and he bought it. I mean, well, with our permission, but he paid for it just like he, just like he bought a dirt bike with his money. Not something I would have bought, but you know, he earned his money, so it's kind of hard to say no. But my justification for it was he thankfully, we live in a great neighborhood where he can roam and run and go meet his friends and makes me feel better to be able to see where he is all the time. But I think we honestly totally skip over the idea that flip phones still exist. You know, I mean, there are still phones out there that if you think, well, if my kids' practice is canceled, they need to get in touch with me. Well, a coach has a phone, right? Like, I mean, they they're they're they can get in touch with you the same way we used to whenever we were kids and we needed to talk to mom or dad. But there are options to give them ways that they can connect with you without opening this massive door, right?

SPEAKER_00: 19:18

Yeah, but that's an excellent point because one of the things that in the anxious generation in general, there's a lot of initiatives, even coming. I know you're in South Carolina as well, through the South Carolina Board of Education. We're doing these things called let grow. It's called this let grow initiative. And what we're trying to do is get kids doing more of that, exploring the neighborhood roaming, because what's happened is parents have become so afraid of everything on the outside. Yeah, we should be vigilant, right? That's part of being a good parent. But the danger, I mean, the statistics show that the danger is really on what they're doing on this statistically has become more impactful. So, I mean, I say kudos to you for having him use it in a way that's gonna help him connect, move his body, knock on the door, and see if someone can can play or hang out. I mean, that's what a lot of it is missing because we're stuck behind the screens. So, um, and I always say too, with my mama groups, there's no mom shaming here. Um, right? Like we all make the decisions that we think are best for our family. And the important thing is just like we're having these conversations to continue doing that. Doesn't it make it wrong if your child does have a phone? Right, right. Because I've had moms say, Well, it's too late now, I've already given them a phone. No, it's not at all. Um, it's just a conversation that I think parents need to get more comfortable having.

SPEAKER_01: 20:36

That was actually going to be my next question. What is You say to the mom who's like, We opened this door and now I really want to pull back on it, but it's too late. Like, what what do you say?

SPEAKER_00: 20:46

Never, never too late. And you know what, too? I would say to incorporate your child in these conversations. Um, now that my son is going into middle school next year, there was a 60-minute story about AI chat box that was on just last week. And I watched it, and then I said, you know what, buddy, I want you to sit down and watch this with me. And some of the content was a little rough, but I had watched it first. And but I felt like it was a conversation we need to start having because it's cute and it feels good to bury our hands and heads in the sand and not want our babies to grow up. But the reality is I want him to feel comfortable talking to me about this. So if it's taboo for me, it's gonna be taboo for him. So I would say it's never too late and have the conversation. Say, hey, we've given you a phone, but here's something I learned about today. Can we talk about it? Or when you're have you ever been in a friend's house and had anybody pull up anything that um that they shouldn't have? And just maybe let maybe do it in the car while you're driving and they don't, you're not staring at them in the face where it's a little um more comfortable for them, and just let them talk because sometimes at first they'll be resistant, and then you just kind of guide the conversation and let them talk and don't rapid fire questions. Yeah, and they'll open up.

SPEAKER_01: 22:01

Yeah, I 100% agree. And I've been having, like I said, my youngest is 12. Um, but having the some of these conversations is I see stories and I say, listen, this is what happened. This is what happened, and here are the the consequences of that. And we, of course, we don't want to like, I mean, like you said, it we we want to keep them babies, but they're gonna hear this stuff from somewhere. And if we want to shape the way that they view it, it's gotta come from us.

SPEAKER_00: 22:28

Absolutely. Because I I I always say, like, as an 80s child, you know, with the whole birds and bees thing, like my mom, you know, I'm not knocking my mom, it's just a different time, but she handed me a book. You know, this is how your body changes and close the door, and that was it. So I learned from my friends in the school bus all that works, you know. Um, so it's a tale as old as time. Is you know, parents don't like to have these awkward conversations, but I think it's absolutely critical. And I think that our kids will respond accordingly by feeling like they can then bring these topics up if we haven't made them where they are unmentionable. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01: 23:03

Well, I think this this has been great information. And I know I feel like we're just trying to catch up with all this information that's now available to us, and now we're seeing the dangers and the trends and all of that. And like you said, it's so important that we're having those conversations because everything is moving so fast and it's not gonna stop. It's just gonna get continue to get faster. So it before we wrap up, is there anything else that you want to share that you want to talk about, that you want people to know or be aware of?

SPEAKER_00: 23:30

Um, well, I would love for people to join Mama. I'd I'd love for people to look at our uh Mothers Against Media Addiction site. Um, if you're in South Carolina or even on the border and Charlotte area and you would like to know more about our chapter, you can find us on Facebook or like I said, on that website, you can go to join mama and put in your information and I'll get a notification and I can reach out and let you know when our next meeting is. Um, I'm really excited about the work we're doing. We're starting to form more partnerships and have some really good ideas for that in 2026 to how how to pull in more community partners to really get this message out there.

SPEAKER_01: 24:05

Well, we appreciate everything that you're doing. I know that's a giant undertaking. So, on top of everything else you do as a mom and a teacher and all the things. So we appreciate what you're doing. And we'll make sure to link to that directly in the show notes. So if you're listening and you're like, yes, I want to learn more, it'll be super easy for you to access. So thank you. I appreciate it conversation with you. Yes, we appreciate you and for sharing all this. And I like you just said, I just want everybody to remember if if you have gone down this path and you're regretting it, you can change it. You can still change it. So always never too late. Well, Kimberly, thanks so much for your time. And again, we'll make it super easy to um check out Mama and connect with Kimberly. Just check the show notes. And until next time, thanks everybody. Thank you.