Welcome And Meet Patty

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Welcome back to Speak Out Standout. I'm Elizabeth Green, and today's guest is Patty McGee. Patty is a nationally recognized literacy consultant, speaker, and educator, passionate about making language and learning come alive. Patty, we are glad to have you. Thanks for taking some time to chat with us today.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

So let's start with a brief background. Um, obviously, you have a passion about grammar and teaching this to kids and teens. Have you always been like that? Were you an English teacher in a past life? Tell us a little bit about you.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

So I was a fourth grade teacher for quite a while in the school that I went to when I was growing up. Um and I found that I wasn't as equipped to teach literacy as I thought I was, because I was always a strong reader and a relatively strong writer and got good grades. And then I found that that doesn't make you equipped to teach. So that left me with um I I feel like when you struggle through something, if you're an educator, you can then show others how to work through the struggle. And that then set me on the path to look at my problems of practice and find solutions for them over the years.

Why Grammar Drains The Room

SPEAKER_00 2:06

And I didn't mean to cut you off if you had some okay. Um I was just gonna say, is this, and so you not only you found like you were struggling to teach it, but I'm assuming you saw that learners, your students, were struggling to grasp it, right? With it, it's a problem both ways.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Yes, a hundred percent. And it was both in I mean, it was in all things literacy, but specifically how we respond to student writing. Um, it started there and also grammar instruction. It was just like a black hole in my literacy block. It just sucked all of the joy and learning out during that time.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Do you think that this is a universal issue? Or in let's say in America at least, right? We're just talking about learning English in America. Do you think it's a universal education issue? Yes, a hundred percent. And I think so because or do you think this is new?

Harvard And The Roots Of Red Ink

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Uh no, it's always been like that. Uh I know where it really started to take hold because I did a little deep dive into history, and I found that back in during the Industrial Revolution, there was this burgeoning middle class that was starting to become wealthy enough to attend Harvard. And the upper crust of the Harvard elites, including the professors there, were horrified by their writing. They called it uh full of linguistic barbarisms, and they chose to put everyone who was not considered upper class into a class, and they would correct the oblivion out of the writing. So the proofreading symbols that we use today come from there, and that was to purge all the linguistic barbarisms. And so, you know, when a place like Harvard does something, perhaps uh many look at that as best practice. But there were even people back then who were like, you're really not allowing voice into this writing, or uh, there isn't one correct set of grammar rules, or how are they going to learn this just through correction without conversation? So it it has been going on for quite a long time. I've also bought some books, specifically grammar books, that one is from the early 1800s, and it is very similar to the grammar like workbooks of now or the grammar experiences found in a lot of materials.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

I think that's you know, it's interesting because I'm like you. English was just something that kind of just always I was able to do, even if I didn't understand the rules behind it. It just clicked. But then, but that is not the case with everybody, just like math, you know, like you know, my husband understands how to do the math and I don't. But it's it, I don't think it's something that we uh see as much in people because uh or it or do you agree that I feel like the conversation side of things is fine, it's pen to paper, right? Is that where we're seeing the big disconnect?

Spoken English Vs Standard Grammar

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Yes, a little bit. I think that's one part of it. If we're speaking about grammar specifically, the instructional approach has been one of memorization, identification, and then expectation of immediate usage because we just did a worksheet on it. And there really isn't any other topic that we expect immediate mastery by completing something. And spoken grammar and written or standard grammar is very different. We speak differently dependent upon the community we're in, the family we're in, um, what we read, what we watch. Um, and then there's standard grammar, which can either be uh decided upon which style guide you might follow, MLA, APA, Chicago, there's many others, or it might be the state standards of what the state is tasking teachers and other educators, parents of um saying this is what we think is important to teach in grammar. Uh and so because of that, yes, we can speak, but it that spoken grammar and standard grammar, or academic grammar, we can even say, is different. And so I actually use a lot of oral language to get to know standard grammar, that it's a lot of conversation happening with different entry points uh to grammar specifically. So let's say we're learning about simple, compound, and complex sentences, we are experiencing them and having explicit instruction around them and getting curious about them and playing with things that help us get to know it so that we're doing so out loud, say with you know, a parent or um another peer or sibling. Um and through that conversational use of standard grammar, we are much more equipped to be able to use it on the page. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

And I will say I absolutely know exactly what you're talking about. The way we speak and the way we write is different. And you know, we teach public speaking and debate. And one of the things that I'm always teaching new students when it comes to speech writing is I want you to write your speech the way you talk. And that is so it blows their mind because they're so used to writing an essay. And I'm like, that's that's not what we want. Nobody wants to hear you read an essay. We want to hear you talk. And so they really are two very different things. But if you're not in that realm, you know, it's not super obvious.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

So what so what have you like? Have you cracked the code? Or like what what where are we at with this? And and what could we do with the information that you've gleaned that can help us parent our kids better and teach them better?

Grammar As A Meaning-Making Tool

Curiosity And Practice Over Time

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Yeah. Well, I think I don't know if I've a hundred percent cracked the code, but I do think that we've created, we, as in um my friend and co-author Tim Donahue, have created an entirely different approach to the teaching of grammar and have a different mindset around what grammar is. Um, it's not a static set of rules that once you learn the rule, you must know how to write well. It's actually very deep and nuanced and ever evolving. And when we think about that, there really is never true mastery of standard grammar because standard grammar is also updated in those different style guides every couple of years. So grammar is growing. And when we think of grammar as a way of making meaning on the page, it's like a painter's paintbrush. We study standard grammar, we speak spoken grammar, we read book grammar, and then we think of our audience and what we're trying to say to that audience. And then we choose the grammar or choose standard grammar dependent upon, or choose a mix of all three of those buckets that I just um shared, or in some way composing to make meaning for the audience, for the reader, whoever that might be, and whatever genre it is. And so that's I think a mind shift for many of us. Um and with that mind shift, we then realize that a very narrow set of grammar experiences, like filling out a worksheet, memorizing things, um even diagramming, uh isn't sufficient to learn something that is technically an art of words. And so that's why we have created just a different approach. But let me tell you how we did this. Um so, first of all, we met, Tim and I met probably 10 years ago, and I was writing grammar curriculum, and he was the supervisor of the school that I was in. And he taught us about grammar in a way that it was like, what? I get it now. Like all of that I know it was taught to me, but now I understand it. And I was like on the instructional practice side of things. So, how do we take that and then create experiences for students? And I just was thinking, you know, what types of experiences do I naturally put myself in when I'm in a learning state? Not school necessarily. And so I love to refinish furniture um with chalk paints and waxes. And I thought about what I do naturally. I get curious about what paints I might use. I hypothesize what might look good. I seek out feedback and explicit instruction from somebody who knows uh more than I do about how to use the paints. Um I then experiment and a lot before I put rush to a piece of furniture. Um, and then I do it and I look at it and I think, so what do I want to hold on to? Basically reflect. What do I know now and what am I curious about in my next piece of furniture? So having those very same entry points for grammar, they don't happen all in one shot. In fact, it's better if they're just little pockets of grammar experiences across time because it has like a snowball accumulation effect. Um, but we first get curious about, let's say, two different types of sentences, just hypothesizing what's the difference? What's the same? And then we experience some explicit instruction. Here's how to build a sentence that looks like this. And then from there, we get to play. I love grammar manipulatives before we expect written grammar on the page. There's a nice scaffold there. So I have lots of different ideas uh for that. And I think that's the kids' favorite part of this whole approach. And then after we've played with the grammatical concept, we pause and reflect. What do I know now? What am I still curious about?

Free Manipulatives For Sentence Play

SPEAKER_00 13:55

That was I also refinished furniture. So that was a perfect analogy for me. I completely understand. I'm sure all the robiners have done the same. That was a big thing, you know, case the past few years has been a big thing. Yeah. Um so so one of the it you really struck me when you said um the manipulatives. I have a child who has um dysgraphia. And so writing has always been a challenge. So any way we could learn something that didn't necessarily pertain to actually physically writing was helpful. So, what kind of manipulatives, like if somebody's listening and they're like, I need that, can you throw out a few ideas of things that we might have around the house or maybe we could easily make or buy that we could help us practice these things?

SPEAKER_01 14:37

I want to share the things that are simple, powerful, and almost entirely free. So, one of the things that I like to do, I call sentences from a sentence. So it could be a sentence or two or even three from a book we've read, or it could be a content-specific group of sentences. And we type them onto a document, enlarge the font, and then cut out each word and each piece of punctuation. And then we ask kids, and hopefully in a collaborative kind of way, to build as many sentences as they can. We're not trying to replicate the original sentence. In fact, I'll share that. Um, but how using the words and punctuation as many times as you'd like to, see how many sentences you can build in five minutes, 10 minutes, whatever it might be, and and write them down. Um, doesn't have to be written down. It could also be take a picture. So speaking of dysgraphia, we don't want that to stand in the way of collecting, you know, these sentences. And then afterwards, once we're done, we put on an admiring eye and we look at the sentences that we've created, or maybe there's somebody else who's doing the same thing. And instead of thinking, I've got more than you, we think, let's admire what we did with grammar in this exercise. And so there's lots of learning that happens there. Like, for example, when I've done this with students, um, there's a word uh that will have like an S on the end, and it doesn't agree. Or like, can we pretend there's no S? And I'll say, that's part of the challenge, but you just discovered really what agreement is. And that's an important thing in writing sentences because you realized it didn't fit together, but other things will. And so even the things that don't work in that type of exercise, in that, you know, using those manipulatives, moving them around, um deliberating over whether or not it's it's a sentence, um, is there's so much learning packed into that.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Yeah, I love that. And do you mind to share another one or two? Because I think people could absolutely start doing that today.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Absolutely. Um, another favorite is what I call word cards. Uh, it was inspired by Magna Poetry, you know, the little the words that were on magnets that we could put on our fridge and then just manipulate and create poems. Um, I think of this also as like almost magna grammar. So we just collect, uh make a grid on it on a dock, um, and collect a whole bunch of different parts of speech, like all the parts of speech. Sometimes like the is the most commonly used word in the English language. So we might do a have a few of those in there. We'll have endings, punctuation, so that there's a whole a whole lot that's there for us to play with. And then this part is a pain. Um, but once you have them, you have them forever. Um, is cutting up the words and then putting them into some type of envelope, and then you have challenges. So create the shortest sentence you possibly can. Okay, take that sentence and see if you can turn it into a five-word sentence that makes sense. Or create two simple sentences and turn them into a complex sentence using what we call um, they're called sent uh subordinate conjunctions, but we call them sentence destroyers because when you put one in front of an independent clause, it's no longer an independent clause, it's been destroyed. So the kids really like that, the hearing the function of it. But we can go back to those word cards for so many reasons and to practice lots of different things in that we might teach in grammar. So it's one of those manipulatives that once you have them, uh skies the limit with what you decide to do and how you choose to use them.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

In the world of AI and things are moving so quickly with that. How important you're gonna think this is an absurd question, but how important is it that we're really teaching the the why behind things instead of just getting it and rolling with it? Yeah. Yeah. Just like you're the what you just said about the sentence destroyer and all that. Like, I the words you're using sound familiar to me. Like, I think I learned those. I under I get it, but I would never have been able to like, you know, piece it apart the the way you just did. How why is that important in today's age?

SPEAKER_01 19:46

Because, first of all, AI isn't at the point where it's correct. Yesterday, so I I'm running just a small course for educators on um this approach to grammar. And I turned to AI for mentor texts because most of book grammar does not have accurate, like standard grammar usage. Like, for example, having the comma before the coordinating conjunction um when joining two sentences, it's it's rarely used these days, but it is something that would be considered standard grammar. Um, so I go to AI and I ask it to write something. And yesterday I was asking for, I gave them the topic and I gave them them as if it's a person, um the the topic and the fact that I wanted simple compound and complex sentences in there. And what it gave me was stylistically okay, but not standard correct. So with each of the complex sentences, they were putting a comma before the subordinating conjunction slash uh sentence destroyer, and that's not correct grammar. Stylistically, if we'd like to be that way, but we're the owners of our writing. And if we're gonna have AI help us out, we are going to be careful consumers of what comes out. And if we know standard grammar, then we can be much more savvy uh when it comes to using AI and using it as a tool rather than a replacement.

Homeschool Grammar Do’s And Don’ts

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Yeah, I I agree. I think that you know there's a big conversation about will AI replace educators? And uh we're, you know, AI, I think is is going to move at such an extreme speed that I think it's absolutely going to change the landscape of education, but certainly not not replace. So well, a lot of our um, I love the the um the the games that you've presented. Um a lot of our listeners are homeschoolers, and if they're really just starting to focus on uh grammar, they've they've been learning how to read all the things, we're ready to move on. What are kind of like your uh do's and don'ts for them as they journey down this path to make it the best experience possible for their kids? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

So I believe in free grammar. I think it might be something I made up, and that's why I believe in it. But when kids are Are very little, and they're beginning to write. Writing is a combination of spoken word, writing, or approximating what they know about letters and sounds, sometimes it's just going in the right direction with a zigzag, um, and sketches. So I define writing as all three of those. So if in our sketches there is, let's say, a person and they're doing something, that's pre-grammar. That's nouns and verbs. And especially if we are orally composing to go along with that sketch and that squiggle, um, we are using nouns, verbs, often adjectives. And so that's important to notice because that is the work that will be the foundation for more formalized grammar instruction. And I have uh created a set of materials that follows the emerging stages of writing for little ones, just like pre-K through first grade, um, that we look at each stage of emerging writing, we look at what our student our children or students are doing, and then we match that to where they are in the emergent stages. So if on the page, this is sometimes parents get like, oh no, my my child's never going to write because what they're making is zigzags and swirls on the page, and it's mostly oral composition. That is a really important stage. And so at that point, we might teach how to use shapes to communicate. If we have letters or letter-like symbols all over the page, we might teach concepts of print. So directionality and return suite. We don't have our uh alphabetic principle solid yet. And so all of that is super important because grammar is baked into that. It's not formally taught in a way like please identify your noun and please identify your verb, but using them is the ultimate goal. So I say about seven or eight in most cases is when we can turn to the description of what I was just sharing of um get curious, all of that. But in I would say pre-K through mid-first or even end of first grade, or even beyond that, um, that's where I would be looking at where are they in the emergent stages of writing and where can I nudge them in playful ways.

A Book That Teaches Teachers

SPEAKER_00 25:39

All right. Well, and your book, Not Your Granny's Grammar, is this um a is this a workbook for kids or is this a guide for teachers and parents? What what is that and who would be interested in it?

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Yeah, it's a guide for teachers and parents. So it is it's called Not Your Granny's Grammar, uh, because I really I was explaining it to somebody long before we put a proposal together for the book. Somebody asked me, like, well, what makes your grammar different? And I was like, Well, it's not the way my grandmother was taught, it's not the way my mother was taught. I'm like, it's just not your granny's grammar. And then that's just stuck until obviously it's turned into a book. Um, but it it gives us a chance to uh shift our mindset around grammar instruction, that the drills and the worksheets and the other things I mentioned earlier are not as effective as they can be, um, even though they've been used for years as the main form of teaching. And so the book gives you alternative materials to use and brings you through multiple experiences to offer to kids to be able to play with grammar, um, be explicitly taught about concepts, and to create tools that we can use as we're writing. So it's definitely for who's ever doing the educating. But it's also because in my anecdotal research of finding out what are the biggest problems educators are having when it comes to teaching grammar. One of them is the methods and the materials, but the other is similar to what you were saying earlier. You're like, I remember subordinating conjunction, I remember that word, but there's a lot that we that didn't stick with us in terms of grammar because grammar instruction of your basically worked for a small percentage. And so it also has a whole grammar refresher for who's ever doing the teaching of the grammar so that you feel more comfortable with it. And I think one of the best parts of it is there are there's a QR code to a companion site where my co-author Tim is actually teaching some of the harder concepts. He got a whiteboard, um, hung it up in his basement, and his three boys, uh aged nine to 13, helped him record them. And so it's also like direct instruction on the concepts we might find difficult.

Play Not Games No Shame

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Yeah. I love it. And I think that one of the things that's really stuck out to me about all of this is you've used the word play many times. I never would have considered English a playful like class, you know? And so, and of course, what kid doesn't want to play? So the more we can make it uh education entertaining and fun, obviously, the the better for the child, the fewer battles for the parent. So I love that. I love that approach.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

And if I could just comment on that a little bit, I really think there's a difference between games and play. Play, you have structures, but an unexpected outcome. Games, you have a winner and loser. So if a winner and loser situation is set up with grammar instruction, those who are learning grammar are doing so like hand in hand with shame, hand in hand with embarrassment if we don't know it. That's why so many of us don't admit that we don't know enough about grammar or much about grammar, because we see people walking around with mugs that say grammar police or t-shirts that say, I'm silently correcting your grammar. Like there's just a whole like set of like shame around learning it um or not knowing it. And we want play to make sure that that shame is not part of it any longer.

Links And Closing Thanks

SPEAKER_00 30:15

Yeah. I I will say that is um absolutely correct. My mother-in-law is a retired English teacher, and um, for the longest, and you know, I'm a former journalist, but I was a broadcast journalist. So the I know more of the like we were talking about, there's a difference between the way the way you write and speak, especially in news. And when we first started dating and I would spend time with her, I was afraid that I was making mistakes and she was secretly judging me. Now I've known her for you know for so long and I know that that's not the case, but I was worried about that. So I yeah, I I absolutely agree with what you're saying. And we certainly don't want to instill that into our kids. Love it. Well, uh Patty, I think this has been really interesting. I am glad that you were here and were able to share some things with us. We will link to your book and your website and your socials. So if you're listening to this or watching this, the links will be right where you are. So you can go check it out. And if you are thinking, oh, I probably need to do a little bit more studying myself before we dive into this with homeschooling. It sounds like not your granny's grammar is a is a fantastic option.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

So teachers, parents, grown-ups in general, when they're experiencing the learning in this way, like learning about this type of instruction, have found it delightful. I hear laughter as grown-ups are learning together. I I don't hear laughter most times in grammar instruction. Yeah. So I want to say if this is something that you're picking up in order to refine instruction, it's also enjoyable if I do say so myself.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Well, thank you for that on behalf of everybody who's like, oh I really don't want to do this, but I need to. So no, that's great. I love it. Um, well, Patty, thank you again for being here. Everything is linked. And so um, be sure to go check it out if you're listening. And of course, as always, uh, thanks for listening.