Welcome And Meet Heather Hester

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome back to Speak Out Standout. I'm your host, Elizabeth Green, and today's guest is Heather Hester. Heather is the host of a podcast called More Human, More Kind. She is also an author of Parenting with Pride. She's a speaker, coach, LGBTQ advocate, and she helps parents, allies, and organizations lead with love. Heather, I am so excited to have you here today and looking forward to our conversation. Thanks for your time. Oh my goodness. Thank you for having me. This is great. So let's just start with the background, right? How did you get to this point in your life where being an ally and teaching others how to be allies became your mission? Why is this important to you?

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Oh my goodness. Well, yeah, there's there's a short answer and a long answer, but the the the answer is my kids and um the experience that we had with my oldest specifically when he came out. He came out as gay about almost 10 years ago. And his coming out, we were completely blindsided. We didn't know. He's the oldest of four. He was 16 at the time.

A Son Comes Out During Crisis

SPEAKER_00 1:04

And we were just surprised. He told us in a very um, very dramatic way. And um, he had run away, we were on a trip, and there were multiple things that had happened within that. But I think there was a really good reason for it happening that way because it stripped away any of the other like questions that we would have had right away, any of the, you know, things perhaps that we still had, you know, programmed from the way that we were brought up, the way that we all of the biases that we still had at that time. And it really stripped it down to this place of, I was so grateful he was alive. And that's all that mattered to me. And so when he said, Mom, I'm gay, I my response to him was, Thank God, I thought you were dead. And that really set us in this place of like, you know, you had those moments where you really look at like what is really important here, right? Like what it gives you such perspective. And um, and I've always been really grateful for that because I think it cleared out a lot of the garbage um right away and allowed us to really focus on him. And he really struggled for about a year and a half, and um, it was a constant learning and um of of what he was going through, what he what support he needed, what support we needed, what things that we needed to unlearn and relearn, and all the while also parenting three other kids who were, you know, 14, 12, 10, you know, they were all younger, like they were he was the oldest. So there was a lot, and dealing with teenage stuff. Anybody having anyone who has a teenager knows, like just having a teenager is super fun. Yep. There's so many fun things that come along with that with without any crises added on top of it. And so we got to that, the end of that, you know, 18, 20, 24 months, and I thought we kind of hit this like spot of quiet. And I remember like reflecting, I've always been a writer and I'd really kind of written my way through this and journaled my way through it, and and had kept track of like all these people who had helped us, the great support groups that we found, the great support resources that we found, um, just the information that I had like looked and looked and looked for, vetted all the things that you do as a parent, right? And I thought, there are so many more. I can't even put a number on the number of families I know who are out there going through the same thing that we just went through and are going through and will

Turning Isolation Into Resources

SPEAKER_00 3:50

continue to go through, and feeling so very isolated and not knowing who they can talk to and what questions to ask, and what what is the best way to support their child and what is their child actually going through? What are they facing out in the world? And so I just decided to create it. And um, I started with just a website, which was a place that I put all of these resources and things that I had found in that time period, and and it really was kind of a blog-ish type read website because that's what I was dumping in there. And then from there, um, I launched my podcast, um, which when I started it, I had I had named it Just Breathe, Parenting Your LGBTQ teen. And as it grew over time, it's about six and a half years old. I've I've been doing it that long now, which is crazy to think about. But I did change it after, you know, a few uh four years, I think. Um just did grew into something even bigger than that. So we still talk about all of those things and we just kind of talk about it in a bigger sense. And um wrote my book and started coaching. And um, it's all just been a very kind of organic, like people reaching out and just saying, this is what I need, this is what I'm looking for, and me seeing like, oh, that's there's there's a hole there that is something that's needed. So I'll go ahead and fill it.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

And I'm sure so many people are so grateful that you did. Cause I mean, looking back 10 years ago, had you had a resource like that, you know, I mean, I'm sure that would have I'm sure that would have helped.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

Yes. Well, that's what my husband and I always say, like, when I'm trying to figure out like what what more I want to do and how kind of to add layers of of depth to what I'm doing, I always think like, what was it that we needed? You know, what was it that we really wanted in those moments where we were like, oh my gosh, this is so scary or frustrating or, you know, whatever it was. So that is certainly I try to hold on to that feeling. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Yeah. Well, and looking back, uh, do you have several, several different questions and lots of things I want to chat about? But when it comes specifically to building confidence and communication skills in your son as he's going through this, do you look back and think there's it notice anything that you think, oh, I should have done that differently?

SPEAKER_00 6:09

Oh, that's such a great well, I yes, there are many things. I look back and think we were not very good communicators, and we thought that we were. And so

Communication Skills And Owning Mistakes

SPEAKER_00 6:25

I think this was by him coming out and him having very specific struggles, kind of highlighted the areas where we needed to learn how to communicate better. And so by my husband and I kind of coming face to face with like, oh, this is how we learned how to communicate. And this is not very effective. This is not working in this in our family now that we're building and growing. Um, what do we need to do? And so I think by doing that, then there was a lot of like, well, seeing us work so hard also, you know, he reflected that, and the rest of our kids reflected that. Like, oh, it's okay to like not get it right the first time, right? And then and and learn to, I think one of the, you know, the kind of the base things of that is be okay with the fact that no one's perfect and no one's gonna get it right typically the first time, right? And to be able to say, oh gosh, I screwed that up. Or I I don't understand, you know, to be imperfect in the way that you you relate to each other until you find out like what works, right? Like, and and each one of us is different, each one of our kids are different. So the way that you know, like now, my kids are 26, 23, 20, and 18, the way that I communicate with them now is very different than the way I communicated with them even last year, right? And so I think it's also kind of adopting that, like having a very flexible mindset of, oh, I'm always going to be learning new things about communication. I'm gonna be learning new things about myself, about who my kids are in the world, um, the best ways to connect with them. So I think, you know, those were kind of like the I know that was like a kind of roundabout answer there, but no, no, I I love it.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

You're willing to look at it and say, what can we do better? And we all can do that in all aspects of our lives. And I love a quote that I always cling to that it's like, we're all just doing this for the first time. What whatever it may be. We're literally I'm parenting a 17-year-old for the first time, you know. And and even though I've been a parent for 17 years, it's very different. So we're all doing it for the first time. And um, whatever the challenges that we have, like you said, teens are going to be challenging regardless. Um, whatever the challenges may be, it really building or having that relationship boils down to the communication and connection that we have.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

So it does. In a sense of humor, I think that is also very helpful. Like, do not take yourself too seriously or so seriously, because um, when you're able to kind of laugh at the mistakes that you've made or been like, oh, I cannot believe it. You know, one of the things we always go back to is one of the first questions we asked Connor was, Are you sure? Which is literally one of the worst questions you could ever ask a kid when they come out to you. We didn't know. We didn't know that at the time. And um, you know, as we were kind of down the road a little bit more and he was able to really express more and more to us and felt more comfortable saying these things, I remember him being like, okay, and guys, that's literally the worst thing you could have said. And it's become a big joke, but for us to be like, oh, well, you know, and and to be able to kind of take that critique or that feedback and say, okay, I'm gonna do better, but also like be able to like laugh at like, oh, well, gosh, that was dumb. And and of course I didn't mean that with any kind of malice or harm.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

So let's talk about that for just a minute. W if somebody's listening and, you know, the best thing we can do is to be prepared for any situation, right? And and so even if somebody's listening and they're thinking, I'm probably not gonna run into this, well, you very well might. And even if it's not your own child, it might be your grandchild or a niece or nephew, or your child's best friend, or your best friend's child. Um, you know, I we live in a world today where people are more empowered. I know a lot of people are still scared to come out, and and that is horrible to even think about that they can't be who they want to be, who they are. Right. But I do think we live in a world that is more accepting, not accepting, but more so, right? So I feel like pretty much it's just like not to compare these two things, these are not similar things, but we are all gonna know somebody with cancer, right? At some point in our lives, we're all gonna know somebody with cancer. And like I said, I'm not comparing these things. I'm just saying it's one of those things that even if you don't want to, you're going to encounter it probably,

What Not To Say And Repair

SPEAKER_01 11:05

you know? And so being prepared so that we are not destroying relationships at the drop of a hat because it's very simple to do with the wrong response. And, you know, obviously, thank God you're, you know, your son told you that later on. And that was something you were able to learn from. But what are the things that we should or shouldn't say if we're caught, if we're completely caught off guard by this with somebody that we love?

SPEAKER_00 11:27

Oh my goodness, I love this question. It's one of my favorites because I have over time collected a lot of these. Um the first one at the top is always, are you sure? Um, just because that is something that, you know, like I said, we did. And so many people, so many well-meaning, loving parents do because it's just like a knee-jerk response. Yeah. Right. And you aren't thinking what the actual story behind that is, your child has been thinking about this for weeks, months, probably years, going there through their own process already. When they tell you they're already halfway through their process. They have, you know, they've gone through many internal steps of denial and and they are carrying shame. And there are there are a lot of pieces that are intertwined there. So I think understanding that is helpful, right? Just kind of having that base information and and to say, if you have already said that or something else that I will share, you know, any of the other things that I share, know that it's always, you can always repair that. You can always go back and say, I didn't know that I shouldn't have said that to you, or I didn't realize that you were, that this is what you were going through. Oh my goodness, I'm so sorry. Can I redo this? Can I, you know, have a second chance? I'd like to, I really want to know what's going on. I mean, there's, you know, whatever your relationship is with your child, your grandchild, your friend, whomever it is. Because you're right. We are um, you will know someone in your life who is gay or trans or non-binary, and and you may not know in that moment how to respond. And I think, you know, the best possible response, I'll just give you the opposite to this, not the I'll I'll give you a couple more what not to say, but the best thing to say is thank you for telling me. Because that gives you the chance to, if you don't know what else to say, it leaves it open and loving and it gives you a moment to like wrap your head around it, like, oh, okay, this is what I was just told. I'm not, I don't know anybody who's gay, or I don't know anybody who's trans. Am I supposed to ask questions? You know, all these internal things that we have. So by saying, thank you so much for sharing that with me, that means a lot. Or, you know, I'm I am here for you, that's all they need. They don't need a long, you know, m monologue from you. They probably don't want it. No, most teenagers want it. No, exactly. I mean, they the the courage that they it took them to say that to you is so great. So that really all they need is what like they just want that validation. They just want to know like they're okay with you. So a few of the other things that um whether it's right away or as you're processing this and you come back to them and you're having these conversations, um, you know, it's natural for a parent, bless you, sorry, excuse me. It's natural for a parent to, you know, be concerned. Like as parents, that's just what we do, no matter, you know, what what path who our children are, we worry. That's right. It's just part of being a parent. And um one of the things that is the message that your child hears when you say, I'm just worried about your future, is there is something wrong with me. There is something that needs to be fixed. And so even though most times we say that again, out of a place of love, they don't hear it that way. They hear it as, oh, I'm broken, oh, there's there's something wrong with me, like this is a flaw in who I am. And so I think the more that we're able to understand how they're receiving our words and what their internal dialogue is, the the better we are able to respond when they tell us things. And I will tell you that my kind of default, especially if I'm kind of blindsided by information, or I, you know, one of my kids tells me something that I don't know a whole lot about, I almost always say, thank you so much for telling me. I I, you know, whether I I want to learn more about this, I'm so grateful you trust me. Something that just kind of leaves it this open place where you don't need to say anything else in that moment. It gives you time to kind of go back and like have your own process, do your own homework, find out more before you engage any further.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Right. It's the whole idea of you want to respond, not react. Correct. You know, and like the whole, I love the the lesson that a lot of uh teachers do in schools or kit parents do at home with their kids of squeezing out the toothpaste and then trying to put it back once it's out. You can't take it back. You certainly can try to make amends like you talked about, and you should, but once you say something, it's out there. And and we most of the time do that when we're reacting to something, not thoughtfully responding.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

And I will say also, usually that reaction is coming from a place of fear and and perhaps, you know, things that are buried way deep inside of you that you're not even really fully consciously aware of, but it's stuff that, you know, it's time for you to begin to unlearn. So it's weird how your body and your your mind kind of begin to get start to get rid of this stuff without you even realizing that's what it's doing.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Well, and you mentioned fear, right? And so obviously, I I think that that is a very reasonable reaction anytime we hear something that we're not very familiar with, right? Or seems scary. And we know, even if we don't personally know somebody who is gay at this point in our lives, or or know that we know somebody who's gay, right, we do know the numbers. And the numbers are horrific as far as suicide rates and and people being ostracized from their families and things like that. And so um I think that is very reasonable for your mind to instantly go there, of like you said, just a place of fear. I I I want you to be happy, healthy, and a kind human being. Right. And this could prevent you from being happy,

Fear, Shame, And Responding With Love

SPEAKER_01 17:55

which is a horrible thing, you know? But I can see that being a first instinct reaction.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Right, right. And I think that also comes from a place of not fully understanding that um a person's uh sexuality, gender identity is part just part of who they are, right? It's not something that this person is choosing. It's not a lifestyle that they are, you know, wanting to be a part of. It is who they are. So telling them that their life is going to be more difficult is something they are already fully aware of. Yeah. And they would not choose for their life to be more difficult. Right. Right. So this is, you know, I I say this sometimes to people are who are really pushing back on this. And, you know, my thing is if you've ever known, like watched someone, whether they are a young person, you know, young adult, come out and really paid attention to what they are going through, what they are, you know, the shame that they feel, the the self-loathing, like all of the things that they are working through to get to a place of self-love and being a happy, healthy, kind adult in the world, you would, it would not even be a thought in your brain that they were choosing this. They are they are wrapping their heads around like, okay, this is how I was made. They are made like that, just the same way as you and I are made straight, right? Right. And so we didn't choose that. We didn't ever spend a moment thinking about it, right? Right. And so that's kind of the place where we all need to get to. This is like just how they were made. And and and they don't want to talk about who they are, you know, sexually attracted to any more than you and I do. Right, right. I mean, maybe they do, but I mean in a in like a fun and a function. To their parents, probably. Right. That well, definitely not to their parents. And good gracious, like those conversations are they're so fun. That's a whole nother layer of things to talk about. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Well, what do you say to it's Pride Month right now? I'm sure somebody's gonna be listening to this sometime down the road too, and it won't be, but right now where we're having this conversation, it's Pride Month. And I will say, as a Christian and as an ally, this month disheartens me so much to see the loudest, angriest voices supposedly coming from a place of Christianity. And so for those people, like they're not gonna listen to this podcast. We're not gonna get through to them. But somebody might be listening thinking, I don't talk about this with my kids. I don't recognize Pride Month. I just, we just don't talk about it. Is that the way to go? I mean, obviously

Pride Month And Talking With Kids

SPEAKER_01 20:50

we're talking, like, you know, the way we talk about things is gonna be different based on the age of the kids, but is it do we just ignore it and hope that it never becomes an issue that we have to work through? Or is this something we should be having conversations about with our kids?

SPEAKER_00 21:05

We absolutely should be having conversations about this with our kids. And it doesn't have to be scary or detailed. Like this is not, I I do a lot of work with um banning books or banned books and um, you know, fighting against that. And that is one of my biggest things is, you know, this is just talking about who people are, right? And it's not, you know, part of some indoctrination. And it doesn't have to be some, it's not about sex. And that is where people go with it who don't truly understand. It can be as simple as some boys like girls, some boys like boys, some girls like boys, some boy girls like girls. Sometimes who someone feels like who they are inside is different than the way they look on the outside, and that's okay. And and just kind of Explaining in the most simple way that this there are all kinds of people in the world and and how cool is that? And um and that that's just who someone loves we should be happy. Right. That people can find someone that they love, right? And and why is that my business, right? Why is that my business to make it harder for someone to to be with the person they love? And so it I mean it's so I think that's kind of the I think it gets spun up into this a place of a lot of misinformation and um just things that are just not true at all, you know, things that are and are purposefully told to be not true, right? To create this what we are dealing with right now. And it's it's just um it makes me very, very sad. I I come from you know, as you know, I come from a very similar background as you, and it is extremely disheartening to um see how this has become intertwined with it it's I'm sorry, it's it's it's another, I'm trying to say this in the best possible way, it's become one of those things that is um looked at as a binary. So if you if you you are either this way and you are a Christian, or you're this way and you're not. And I I find that so and I'm not saying that, I mean, I know you certainly don't believe that way, and there are many Christians who do not believe that way, but I'm talking about kind of who you brought up at the beginning, like that kind of faction of um of of Christians who and I think that's all based in fear, right? They get like really spun up in the fear, they get really spun up in the the propaganda that's out there, and um and the dehumanization of a group of people who are just people, right? Right people who just want to live their lives, they don't want to be dissected by you know every other person out there and every news outlet and every politician. They just want to love who they love and be who they are, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:41

And just be happy, right? And just be happy. Exactly. One of the things that um I have I have tried to think about this actively as a been a mom, you know, and prepare for if that time comes. I I just want my kids to know that they can come to me about anything and that that is not gonna change the the way I feel about them, right? And so we can tell them that all day long, but if they hear us bashing some, oh, did you hear somebody's so-and-so sun came out, they're gonna hear those things. They're gonna pick up on that. And it is either going to lead them to believe the same way or to absolutely believe that you're gonna be the same to them if they are in that situation. And so just even like when they were little, I instead of saying something like, you know, especially when little kids, oh, do you have a girlfriend in class or whatever? I would always say, Is there anybody in your class that you like?

unknown 25:34

Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Rather than just, you know, just that minor, minor shift. And I hope that things like that are enough for them to know that, you know. Absolutely. Mom's mom's got it.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

She's she's, you know, she's gonna be okay with me however I am. Yes. I think those, but those things, they seem so little, but they're so big, right? Because those are the little things that you do, you know, over and over over time that just get in there where they just know, right, in their bodies, they know that they're safe with you.

unknown 26:05

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

They know that they could tell you anything and and it would be okay. And um, and I think that is probably the best thing that we can can do as as moms, as parents, is to um, you know, and and if again, if you are listening to this and you think, oh gosh, I've said some things, no better time in the present to become more aware of your language and the what the way that you're speaking and the even energetically, you know, do you do you make a face or if somebody says something, right? If do you like what is your body language, and begin to shift those pieces. Um, and because they're always paying attention. And there is nothing more in this world that a child wants than a relationship with their parent, forever and always till the end of time. And so it's not like, oh, they're 18, it doesn't matter anymore. Like it always matters. It'll matter when they're 40, right? It'll it'll matter you know, until until you both leave this earth. So um I think that those little tweaks in your language make a huge, huge difference.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Well, we are we are just about out of time, but I just want to ask you one other quick question. And then of course, if there's anything that we didn't cover that you think our audience needs to know, I know there's so much that we could talk about, but but if somebody is listening and they're like, okay, you know, I understand, um, I get this, and I but I haven't spoken up. I have not talked about any of this with my kids. I don't address it. I just, you know, but I but I support people in the LGBTQ community, maybe just not out loud. How can they start doing it maybe just a little bit more out loud, you know, so that that is felt by their family and the people around them.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Right. Oh, that that's such a great question. I think that is it is something

Speaking Up As An Ally Plus Next Steps

SPEAKER_00 28:00

where, you know, as adults, we do just overthink everything, especially if it's something that's a little uncomfortable. And I think that the best way to kind of start entering this conversation, especially if your kids are a little bit older and you are able to have, you know, kind of open-ended conversations with them, or if you're, let's say, just sitting at the dinner table, you can just ask a question of curiosity instead of saying, oh, I heard so and so came out, you can ask a question in a way that shows that you're curious. You're not judging that somebody might be gay or trans. You are genuinely interested in and what your child might know and the information that they're that they're learning on the on the street. And the thing, you know, just and and kind of open yourself to this space of like, I don't really know, but I really would like to know. And um and the more you're able to do that and kind of have follow-up questions and follow-up conversations, the easier it will become for you to enter this. And of course, there's a million things you can do on your own, but I think that um having that interaction with your child is absolutely priceless.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

Yeah. And I mean, like we said before, uh, what does every parent want? Nothing more than for our children to be happy, healthy, kind people. And for them to have that future, they need to know that we love them regardless of whatever life choices they make. And and again, I'm that's the wrong thing to say because it like we discussed, not a choice, but you know what I'm what I'm saying, regardless of like whoever they decide to marry, right? Or whatever. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

All right. Well, Heather, I think this is such a valuable conversation. I appreciate you being here. And is there anything else? Um, you have tons of resources, and so we will make sure we have all the links to those things. So if somebody's listening and is like, I need to know a little bit more, I get your emails. I love them. Um, but is there anything that we didn't talk about that you want to leave with our listeners? Or if not, just tell us a little bit more about what you what you can help them do.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Um, I I think this was a really, really good like 101. We went, these were some great questions and great information to share. Um, if this is you know just sparking something for you, you can go to my website. That's why everything lives there. It's HeatherHester.net. And you can find my podcast there. You can find a ton of resources, all of the other things that I do in the world, my book, um, lots of lots of good information is there. Get on my newsletter list and and you can you too can receive what Elizabeth has been receiving.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

All right. Well, Heather, again, we appreciate your insight. We appreciate all that you're doing. This was such a needed resource. And thank you for spending so much time of your life and building this for other parents to make make this transition easier for them and to help them be better supporters of their children. So thank you for what you do. And of course, as always, thanks for listening. Thank you so much for having me.