SPEAKER_02 0:38

Welcome back to Speakout Standout. I'm Elizabeth Green, and today's guest is Dr. Denise Healy. Dr. Denise is an educator, psychologist, and researcher who studies domestic violence with a focus on prevention and breaking the cycle. And Dr. Denise, we're really glad to have you here today to talk about all this.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

I'm so pleased to be here with you and share my message. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

So before we dive in, anybody who's just starting to listen, I we I want to just clarify, Dr. Denise, this what we're going to talk about today is for anybody and everybody, right? Not necessarily just victims of domestic violence, correct?

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Actually, this is for everyone, not just victims, because it's also for parents. It's for

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 1:16

anyone struggling with anger management. It basically I provide tools and skills to help eradicate or prevent issues of violence or difficulty with the child neglect, child endangerment, alcohol, drugs, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Okay, great. All right. Well, so before we dive into the things we want to talk about, Dr. Denise, first why don't you share with us how did you get to this place in your life where this is your main focus and your mission?

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Well, early on in my career, and I've I've been a psychologist for a long time, I was an educator first, and then I moved into psychology, and I was a school psychologist first before I got my marriage and family um uh degree, master's, and um I worked in shelters and I worked with women who were victims of domestic violence. And they, of course, they would have their children with them. And I remember these women and children would would, I'd I'd take them to the shelter, and I'd be the one to to meet and greet them and get them settled in and in a safe place. And um I couldn't help but

Why She Focuses On Prevention

SPEAKER_00 2:23

think if there wasn't violence, then we wouldn't have this victimization. So in 2015, I flipped the script and um I really investigated and researched what strategies, what resources, what programs were out there for domestic violent offenders to help them eradicate their behavior. And there was very little out there, very little research. And so I dove in head first. I had no idea in 2015 that it would become my business would become what it is today. And um, we started with about 30 clients a week, and we serve about 3,000 clients a week now, and I know, and I grew from just myself and my tech partner because we have all virtual classes. So you can take our course from anywhere in the world and um in English or Spanish, and um and now we serve that many people, and we've become the largest um service provider in California in this particular niche. We're in 44 of the 58 counties.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Well, that's incredible, and obviously making a really important difference for families. So one of the and tell me, is this a um misconception that you know we know that abuse can be cisco, right? If you grow up in an abusive family, you're more likely to be an abusive parent. But that's not always the case, right? I mean, people can grow up in abusive families and not be abusive parents themselves, or somebody could be an abusive parent or abusive to their partner and never have been a victim themselves. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 4:06

All the above, yes, that is true. It is the patterns we develop starting in childhood and that we maintain. We either interrupt the cycle, or like you said, if you're from an abusive home and you make a um um a distinct choice to interrupt the cycle and you learn how to learn the skills to interrupt the cycle, or you are not in the cycle, but because of your experiences through life or your traumas that you might have been impacted by, um you develop uh behaviors that are violent in nature.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Okay. And so let's talk about this as parents, right? So assuming that we the somebody listening to this is not in a situation where they have a safe, healthy family environment, why should they even think about something like this? Why does it matter as we're raising parents? Because we think, oh, well, you know, my kids aren't exposed to anything like that. They're gonna grow up and be just fine. Why should somebody who's in that environment be concerned?

SPEAKER_00 5:08

I always believe in uh well, well, our model is about being entirely aware so you can learn problem-solving skills so you stay nonviolent, right?

Breaking Cycles Beyond Victimhood

SPEAKER_00 5:20

And so what's important about that is our children have to go out into the world, regardless of the environment that they come from, and then they have to interface and negotiate and determine, bring their moral values into like the school setting or the community setting or the friend setting. And not everybody has the same moral moral foundation or the same understanding about violence, or they may not um be able to deal with some of the behaviors that are, you know, bullying is very um very strong in our school systems throughout the country, you know, and um so someone who is well adjusted at home and feels safe and secure, they go into the school setting, they don't feel so safe and they don't feel so secure. And so they develop coping mechanisms that they may or may not communicate with their parents, right? And so it's really important that they're aware of the skills that they can use in order to um maintain their integrity and groundedness in their family morals.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

Well, so obviously there's not a specific playbook that we have as parents to do this, this, and this, don't do this, this, and this, and you're gonna raise a happy, healthy, communicative person, you know. Um if that was the case, you know, we would all be a lot better off. But there is no playbook for that. But there obviously are things that we can do. So what what do you what kind of tips do you have for parents who want to teach their children how to manage anger in particular?

SPEAKER_00 6:55

I love that you said that. I've loved that you asked that question. Um, I wrote a book. One of the biggest things that came out of my work with these adult offenders is they said, we really wish we would have known these strategies when we were in high school or when we were in grade school, because they wouldn't have been in trouble when they got older, right? I've had them parents who said, um, we wish we had these strategies so we don't, you know, demonstrate or model for our children

Teaching Kids Anger Management

SPEAKER_00 7:25

some of the bad behaviors that we tend to fall into when we're having a difficult moment with each other. So the first, the very first strategy that I always teach anyone is active listening. It's being able to listen to someone else without judgment, criticism, or blame, and to be able to put the other person first. That's really hard in our society today. Yeah. Because I'm being protective and I want my position known, and so I want to throw out my ideas and I want you to listen to me. But the biggest step is for me to listen to you and for to teach individuals how to stop, think, and not put themselves before the other person. So it's it's very easy, actually, once you get into the habit. And I did research on this, so that's the first strategy. It's very easy to do if you practice it over time. And it takes people about three weeks to learn this particular skill if they put it into practice. So you can teach your children early on how to actively listen without judgment, criticism, and blame. And the first thing is I know this sounds like I'm minimizing it, but I'm not, is to look at the person with total respect and kindness and love and put them first. That's hard to do when it's a heated situation. And then actively listen without judging them, without criticizing, without blaming them, and without sinking over them. Very important skill.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Right. I think that oftentimes when we, especially in a heated scenario, we're constantly thinking about the next thing we're gonna say, right? Oh, I'm gonna prove you wrong and I'm gonna say this in a second, instead of really listening to what I have to say. And so I what do you think the best way to do that? I mean, is really just to zip it.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Actually, to uh grin and bear it or to zip it and bear it is probably um, it's like a pressure cooker. That doesn't always work. We are visual human beings. So a pre-strategy to active listening is to avert your eyes, to have your children or even adults just to look down because it disconnects, then you can ask yourself the what question. Now, there's a lot of science about the what question, and I love this, it's in my book as well. But there's a lot of science behind the what

The “What” Question Reset

SPEAKER_00 9:50

question. When I ask you, why do you like the seashore? Your brain, the part of your brain that reacts to the why question is different than the question the what the part of your brain that reacts to the what question. And most people in a heated situation are in neither of those parts of the brain. They're in the fight, flight, or freeze part of the brain. So, in order to get yourself, and this is this works fabulously, and people who practice it once or twice, they immediately feel the difference in their body. And all you do is you ask yourself the what question, and you avert your eyes and you, what's my best next step? You will immediately go from your brain stem to your prefrontal cortex, because this is where problem solving occurs in your prefrontal cortex, right? So when someone stops, averts their eyes and disconnects the energy and the visual contact and go, okay, what's my next best step? We can problem solve pretty quickly in that state. Children do it well. It's like a child who's crying and they're going, ha ha, and you go, What's the matter? You'll see them freeze for a minute, they'll go, and they'll start crying, but you keep asking them what, and they'll begin to develop their prefrontal cortex and their problem-solving skills. It's wonderful to watch this happen. I've worked with a lot of people, and there was one gentleman who was in this verbal contact contest with his wife, and he said, It's not gonna work. Miss Denise, this is not gonna work. But he sat there and he he he did it and he asked the what question. He literally felt different, more relaxed, more grounded, and he was able to look at his wife in a different way. And when the first time he did it, he started to laugh, like, oh my god, what's happening here? Because he was no longer angry, he wasn't fighting, and it caught her off guard too, he said, and she just got mad and left the room. Next time she came in and it happened again, he said, the next strategy, which is telling the person, especially if they're in your life, you are very important, but I'm very important. How we're dealing with this issue, the issue might be important, but how we're dealing with it is not working. So once you get past the what question and you actively listen and you get to the point where you can communicate and you can say, let's deal with this in a different way, all of a sudden there's mutual respect. Then the space between you and me, or the space between the person, the both people, is a space where I can love you and you can love me and we can feel safe. And that's the whole process is to get to a place of safety with each other. Children pick up on this really easy. Children are able to master these skills pretty readily. And the earlier they learn it, by the time they're middle school and high school, it really helps them negotiate any conflict that they might get into and watch out, parents, because then they use it with the parents and say, they go, they go, I am listening to you, but you're important, mom or dad, but I'm really important. And you yelling at me, the issue might be important, like I need to do my homework, but you yelling at me isn't working. Can we do it another way? Right. It's pretty powerful work.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

Yeah, especially to have our teens kind of put us in our place, you know, I'm sure. Well, and when you say you stop and think, like, what is my next best step? Obviously, this is going to be dependent on the situation. I know there's no universal answer here, but like, but typically in a typical like let's say we're arguing with our teen over homework, right? What is in general the next best step for mom to do in this situation where you didn't do your homework, you're failing this class, you're in trouble, the kid doesn't want to hear it, you know, and you're just kind of battling it out. What what in general? Well what would be a good example of a next step?

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Well, if all of that is happening and if that is true, and an argument is about that, the next best step is to take three steps

Homework Fights And Better Next Steps

SPEAKER_00 14:07

back. To take three steps back and help the child understand why they might be failing, or ask them, why do you think, what do you think is going on with why you are failing? Here are the expectations that we have of you. Are these expectations unreal reasonable? If they're unreasonable, then we have to adjust the expectations. If the expectations aren't unreasonable and the child can't meet those expectations, then we have to help the child develop the skill to meet those expectations.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Yeah. And I I like that you mentioned asking them. Because I think so often in in miscommunications or like arguments, it is a matter of miscommunication or uh assuming something that is not accurate.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Not accurate. And um our teens today um really run deep. They're dealing with more than reading, writing, and arithmetic. And so when they're saying they don't understand, imagine walking into a classroom where you don't feel safe. Right? Say you don't feel safe in the classroom, maybe not because of the teacher, but because of the other students in the class, because of the dynamic in the what just occurred in the hallway, what happened in the girls or boys' room at PE. And so they're carrying all of that, and children don't

School Stress And Feeling Unsafe

SPEAKER_00 15:38

have necessarily the capacity to let it go and move on to the next thing. So it might be that transition piece of how are you doing with transitioning from class to class? How are you doing? Is there something happening in the hallway that is putting you in an unsafe feeling? Now, it doesn't necessarily mean they're unsafe. I think our schools are safe, but sometimes the interaction between teens is not safe. And so that needs to be addressed as well. I had one student tell me, because I worked in middle and high school for a long time, and he said, um, and he was he was really distressed. And he said, you know, when I walk down the hallway, I feel like I'm walking down the center of rabbit dogs. That was his experience. Now I could walk down the hallway and not experience that at all.

unknown 16:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

Right. But from this child's perspective, this 16-year-old boy's perspective, that's what he experienced every day. It would be really hard then to go into algebra and sit down and try to really use my prefrontal cortex to problem solve that algebraic formula.

SPEAKER_02 16:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

There'd have to be a lot of refocusing and re-presetting to bring all the children back to thinking. And I don't think we do that enough for our students. I think when students come in, they're supposed to sit down and open their book and get to work, and they're not really preset to do that. So to teach the child to preset themselves is important. If you're struggling with walking down the hallway or you had an interaction that throws you off, take a minute, sit at your desk, take a minute, practice breathing. Remember it's them, not you. All you have to do is breathe, focus, remember where you are, stay very present, stay very aware, and then engage. Sometimes that all that's all it takes for, especially for high school kids. It's a little more difficult for middle school children.

SPEAKER_02 17:43

Yeah, I have a middle schooler and a high schooler, so I can absolutely see that. Well, so so stopping and and um, you know, like averting our eyes and stopping and thinking, what's my next next best step? Um, and then asking them questions, right? If in situations, what else can we do to help diffuse hated situations with our kids? Whether it's between us and the child or siblings, you know, anything.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

Another great um strategy, well, those are the strongest ones. Once you master those particular strategies, we have 52 strategies that we teach over a period of 52 weeks, right? And so um another strategy would be for um parents to sit down. I had uh a couple do this, and it's very easy in relationship, in parent relationship, because we're so busy. Moms are so busy,

Relationship Repairs Parents Can Model

SPEAKER_00 18:43

dads are busy, kids take up our energy and our time. And so it's like pass ships passing in the night. But the key to remember is the parents are the models for these children. Always it's the parents and how the parents line up so the children feel like they have a stable place to come home. So um this couple was not doing well. And so when they came to me, I have a strategy which I have them tell themselves for a period of time, I am lovable, I am capable, and I'm worthwhile in all things. So you, Elizabeth, are lovable, capable, and worthwhile in all things. Now, a lot of times when people say that, they go, Yeah, I'm lovable, capable, and worthwhile. But I want my clients to really think it through. So I had this female client who would lay in bed and she would say that to herself, just to ground herself, because kids can come at her, husband comes at her, work comes at her, life, dinner comes at her, everything comes out, right? We are like the waters that uh churn up, right? Um and so she was doing that. And her husband was freezing on the other side. So when I worked with him, I said, I want you to do this exercise. I am lovable, I'm capable, worthwhile. And then I told her, You need to turn to him and say to him. Yeah, he curled into her, he started to cry and said, I thought you were leaving me. I felt the distance so bad, I thought you were leaving.

unknown 20:24

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

So his pain met her pain, and they were just bumping up against their pain because the stress without clear communication and actively listening to each other really butted up against each other. And then I had them do the this exercise. They just had a little piece of paper on the doorway when, you know, because they were like ships in this, you know, they were passing in the night, right? And so it was they had their names up there and just a line. And what they would do is they just write what they appreciate about each other. I appreciate that you take care of our kids so well. I appreciate that you go to work and you're the breadwinner. I appreciate this, I appreciate this. And um it only took very short order, especially people who are in a committed relationship and wanted to work, both of them. Once they start seeing success in their relationship, they start to come together in a way that they remember at their wedding, right? And they go, Yeah, we haven't felt this way in a long time. Another strategy I call put down putting down the shield. We all have our shields that go up. And one gentleman has a shield, he puts it up, and then he gets really mean. His outside self is quite mean, right? But his underside is tender and loving and wants all the things for his family that that anyone would want for their family. And the woman, her shield is to bolt. I see it coming. I think I'm gonna go wherever she goes, right? Because she's trying to hold everything together and she leaves. Very common situation. So once they both put down their shields and keep them down, that's a hard thing to keep them down, is stay vulnerable. Brene Brown talks about vulnerability, and it is so important to stay that vulnerable and in that vulnerable state to turn to each other and say, I know you're lovable, I know you're capable, I know you're worthwhile.

SPEAKER_02 22:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

It just opens everyone's heart.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

Yeah. Who doesn't want to hear that, especially from somebody that you love? You know, you you want to know that you're loved too. And and especially after like after many years of marriage and just saying, I love you, I love you, love you, like you know, in passing, it can it doesn't mean as much as when, you know, I mean, so when you're actually like saying those it just in a different way, I could also see how that um our kids would love love to hear them. I hear for um for Valentine's Day, I saw something online and did this. And every day from like February 1st to the 14th, I put a little heart on their bedroom door saying something a good quality that they have something that we love about them. And um, you know, I was like, are they even looking at these? And then I noticed my son get up first thing that morning and hey, look for the new heart. And I thought they are, you know, and they're they're internalizing that. And it's just little ways of letting people know, but it verbally writing it, but uh just outside of just saying I love you. I feel like those words can be overused and underappreciated.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Well, when it when I love you doesn't work is when the behavior doesn't match the word okay, like I love you by instead of love you, you're important to me. But these um a lot of times I run into males who say, I don't want to work that hard in my relationship. The the strategies I suggest are not hard. And here's the cycle that I've developed, it's called first of all, you're aware, and then you problem solve. Once you're in awareness, then you can problem solve. It's really easy to get to play and intimacy. If you've pro if you've worked out the skill to problem solve together, then you go into deepening love and compassion, and then you go, oh, I'm aware of this, and then you become you start to cycle a new cycle, not the domestic violence cycle or the denial, which leads to tension, that tension phase, and then it goes into explosion and then a fake honeymoon kind of place, right? So we substitute denial with with awareness, tension with problem solving, and then you never get to explosion because there's no need. You get to play, and everybody wants to be free of the feeling of tension. That's that's really everybody's avoiding the tension. And so to get out of that that way, they're either doing it with anger, they're doing it with fleeing, they're doing it in all different ways. They're drinking. A lot of alcohol and drug use is about avoiding. And so, um, yes, there are addicts, and I'm I don't

A New Cycle For Accountability

SPEAKER_00 25:11

question that, but I do question sometimes the underlying motive is sometimes it's to avoid or disconnect and just not deal with some things that really need some attention. But what I wanted to say was it's exciting to see. I did research and I looked at three things. I looked at um how long does it take someone to be um become accountable for their behavior? Then how long does it take someone to change their attitude? And then how long does it take for people to really develop the nonviolent skills in order to live a healthy life? We see clients coming in the door and they are meaner than cats sometimes. You know, when cats are mean, they can be mean. So um, but by the end, they are crying and thanking us because the process is they're walking the process, they embrace the process. But it takes about six to eight weeks to change your um accountability, to humbly account for behavior. I don't care what behavior it is. I'm leaving the house too early without saying goodbye. Someone would brush that off is not important. But if it's the family that you profess to love, stop, acknowledge, love on them, and leave. That's all people really need is to be um seen, right? See me for a minute because you got your day and he's got his day, your kids have their day, but they just need that safety and attachment and security so they can go out and face the world. Then when they come home, there was a gentleman who would come home and he never knew why his family was upset. Well, he'd come in, he'd go right in to you know, take care of himself for an hour. He wouldn't say hello to anybody, and uh he would like take his time and he'd expect the dinner on the table and very kind of old world thinking, right? And so he um he couldn't figure out why his wife was hurt every night. He couldn't understand it. He goes, I'm working hard. I can't go, okay. Tell you what, leave everything at the door, and when you come in before you go take a shower, acknowledge everybody. Just acknowledge everyone, however you do it. It might be a kiss, it might be a low, it might be whatever, however you however you do it. Then go take your shower. Let your wife know, let her be the last one. Say, I'm gonna go and thank her for what she's doing for you. Because when you get out, you know your dinner's there. Thank her, go take your shower, do what you need to do. When you come out, tell me how your family's reacting to you.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

He goes, he goes, Oh my gosh, everybody's so nice. And the conversation is great at the table, and we went into it's everything he wanted. He just didn't know he was the change agent in the moment. He could be the change agent. As soon as he learned that, the house, the whole house dynamic changed.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

Yeah. And when it's not like it that's anything bad necessarily, but it was affecting the people around him. And so being, like you said, acknowledging that and being willing to change in the slightest things can can be. Little, little change. Yeah. Well, Dr. Denise, we are already like at time, but we've this moved so fast. But before we wrap up, I just want to ask, is there anything else that you want to share with our audience? Or and and if you could just quickly touch on one other question. If there's a mom listening who's who has been in a domestic violence situation and is worried that her kids will recycle, obviously you can assure her that's not necessarily the case, but what what could or should she do in her role to prevent that from being oh uh you're muted?

SPEAKER_01 29:00

Don't know how that happened.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Uh we have a lot of resources on our site. We have it's our site is S2S DV online, and there is a resource page there. It helps people have their readiness plan ready in case of really dangerous situations. It has resources in every local area in the country because we're we're set up to go national. Um, I also recommend my book. The book came out of um my clients telling me, I wish I had this for my I'm changing as an offender. My wife or husband doesn't

Resources Books And Closing

SPEAKER_00 29:40

believe me. What can I do to practice with them? So I wrote the book for them, and it's called Mending Broken Connections. And it's just 10 simple strategies for someone to use. And it's good to use them just on your own because once you start changing, it changes the dynamic of the relationship.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Well, that's fantastic. We'll make sure we link to that. So if you're listening to this or if you're watching, the links are going to be right wherever you are. So you can hop over to the website, you can check out the book, and of course they can reach out to you directly, right? With any questions interest in your programs.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

I have a child's book for younger children struggling with anger, and it's called Christopher's Anger. You can get it on Amazon, and it's when my last name was Zuckerman, so it's Denise Zuckerman, but um it's called Christopher's Anger, and it's a composite of children who have extreme behavioral issues and stream extreme anger. So it gives them some strategies.

SPEAKER_02 30:31

Oh fantastic. You're hitting all the all the dots, right? From the little ones to the adults. So well, Dr. Denise, thank you for what you do. You're making a difference in families and lives, and we appreciate your time here today and sharing all this with us.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

I'm I'm honored to be here. Thanks, Elizabeth.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

And thanks for listening.