Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Welcome back to Speak Out Standout. I'm Elizabeth Green, and today's guest is Dr. Randall Alifano. Dr. Randall is a clinical psychologist, an ordained minister, and the author of the book Listening in the Raw. He challenges typical listening techniques and says that there is a better way. And we're going to talk about that today. Dr. Randall, thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Wonderful to be here. Looking forward to this.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

So if you want to just start, let's let's get a little to know a little bit more about how did you get to this point in your life where this is your focus and this is your mission and ultimately teaching people how to have better connections by listening. How did this come about?

SPEAKER_01 1:14

That's a good question. We could talk for three hours just about that. Uh the short answer is even when I was a kid, um, I'm a New York Italian. So we every Sunday we'd sit around this huge table with all the aunts and uncles. And even as a nine, 10-year-old, I could see that nobody was listening to each other. Everybody was talking over each other. Um, somebody would say something and someone else would have a thought and they would interrupt and go with that. And I could feel my loneliness, my pain, that nobody was really listening. Everybody's trying to talk. And so from that point on, I started becoming more curious about how come we humans don't listen, but we speak a lot. And then I got really interested in it, and that's why I became a therapist because I wanted to listen to people. And then as I listened more and more, I realized I wasn't just listening for the in the service of other, that was part of it. But when I really listened, so that I was so receptive, I was having a somantic experience of what they were talking about. I could follow my curiosity and ask questions until they really felt them. My perspective changed. I saw life, people differently, and I started to expand my own my own prejudices, my own limitations. They expanded more and more and more as I could receive what people were saying at a deeper level. So it became a passion of mine. Um, and that's why I wrote the book, because I thought

Childhood Lessons On Not Being Heard

SPEAKER_01 2:48

I wish other people would listen, even therapists.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Yeah, you would think, I mean, obviously that's the job, right? You that's what you're getting paid to do. You would think that they do. But um, you know, and I think that this is a really valuable conversation to have any time. But I feel like right now we're in this world, like you said, where everybody wants to speak a lot. And not only do they not want to listen to others, but they're very quick to uh attack others, you know, like our abilities to have conversations, full conversations, seems to be like breaking down massively. So I'm really glad that we can talk about some of those because I know that as a parent, what we want for our kids to grow up is to be healthy, happy, kind, empathetic human beings. And being able to have conversations with people is a huge part of that.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Yes, it is. Indeed.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

So when I've talked to different people on the podcast and they give, you know, that would talk about active listening and strategies to make sure that our kids know that we are paying attention, we are listening to them in the busyness of the day. I might be cooking dinner, and now my kid wants to tell me that he and his girlfriend are having a fight and it's kind of not a take, not a great time to talk about it. But, you know, so we we've gotten tips from different people on things like that, putting down the phone, active listening, open-ended questions. But you come at it from a little bit of a different perspective, right? Those are techniques that can help us. But what are we missing when it comes to this core component of listening?

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Well, again, good question. Real receptivity. I mean, even things like active listening and reflecting and all those listening techniques that many of us learn, if we use them as techniques, then we're playing a role instead of being able to sit in the unknown and being genuinely curious about. Wait, so even when we're talking to our kids, wait, honey, wait, what's that like for you? How come you said it that way? Which is very different from, how come you said it that way? You know, where right away the child goes, uh-oh, and they move back a little bit. But to be genuinely curious, to be enthralled with how does my for me, my boys, how does my boys see what's going on right now? Why are they angry? Why are they sad? What are they trying to articulate? And to me, working with clients is one thing. Working with little kids who have a hard time articulating because they don't have mastery of the language yet, it takes a lot of patience, really understanding it's going to take some time for them to find words. So ask questions until they can really find what they're trying to say. And those moments between child and parent, where the parent gets down to their level, as it were, and genuinely wants to know what's it like for you, sweetheart, changes the relationship. It really inhibits the teenage years where the teenagers have to fight back and be nasty to the parent. Most of that I have found over 40 years of practice is because they didn't feel listened to and they're angry about it. And so now they just communicate Oh, there's your puppy. That they they they uh um are so disappointed and hurt by the parent that they come back with sh snarkiness or something along those lines. And so I try to help parents sit down, accept that they're in the unknown, they actually don't know what's going on with that child in the moment, and ask questions until they really get in their heart, for example, not just their mind, what's it like with our child? And then the magic happens. I mean, you'll just see it in the child's face. I'm sure you have with your kids.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

Yeah, when I was gonna say, um, I we see this a lot in our classes when we're teaching speech and debate. We don't do anything magical that is building confidence in these kids. We just listen to them. We ask them questions about things that oftentimes they don't get asked about, especially by adults, and then we listen to them. And I tell you what, they never fail to impress me with their ideas and their thoughts. And sometimes we just we we pass over kids and and think that they they don't necessarily have ideas or thoughts about about a lot of things that they that they really do if we give them the opportunity to. So I know what you're talking about, just seeing that that the their confidence builds just by being able to be listened to.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Yes, it sets the stage for them thinking, oh, you, i.e., you you, the mom, i.e., the world, wants to hear what I'm thinking and feeling. And that opens people up. It just is mind-blowing. I I uh for some reason I'm thinking about a

Real Receptivity Versus Listening Techniques

SPEAKER_01 7:33

time when I made a mistake with one of my boys who was 16, and he got really angry at me. So I said, okay, sweet, let's sit down. Tell me everything. And he just went on about how angry he was that I did this thing. And I really wanted to know what it was like for him that I made this mistake, and he felt it.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Okay, so this sounds great, um, but you are a trained psychologist. You spent a lot of time learning how to listen to people. So, how do people like me, who everyday Joe, who might when my instinct is to chime in a lot more often than it is just to fully listen, how can I pull that part of me back and get myself back to where I'm really more focused and genuinely curious and and listening from the heart to say, I guess in a way?

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Well, I you nailed it. To be genuinely curious, to really have the intention, I want to know what it's like over there, as opposed to I'm gonna fix them, heal them, any of that stuff. And you mentioned therapists and how we're trained to listen. It's it's the same thing. If we're trained in these techniques, I'll give you an example. For example, when a uh a therapist consults with me, I'll hear frequently, you know, I didn't know what to say, so I did this listening technique. You know, I did some reflection or and I think that's not listening. You're you're covering up that you don't know what's going on. You're trying to snow them, as opposed to say, wait, I'm I'm not sh I'm not following. Can you say that? Let the let the speaker know you're willing to be straight up honest that I I'm I'm a little lost right now. Let them feel your authenticity, because then they feel like, oh, and you're telling me that, and you're leaning in because you want to know, which gives them more permission to drop in deeper and try to explain, speak their truth, as it were. And so to me, the the real key is what what's the listener's real intention? Um like your your example of you're you're making dinner, you're washing dishes, and the kids and and you've got six things going on. How do you how how and why do we prioritize wait? My child speaking to me about a concern they have or something is the most important thing. I'll pause the dishes. I'll I'll pause the dinner for a second, or I'll say, sweetie, what you're saying is really important, and I'm embroiled in all of this. Can you wait 20 minutes and then let's sit down and really talk about it? So the kid really hears, oh, you really do want to hear from me. But like you said earlier, to me the key is I don't want to listen just to get something done. I want to listen so that I'm moved by what they're saying. I can I'm being as I say in the book, I'm being penetrated by their narrative. So it's in my body, I can feel what they're trying to express. And then everything changes to me. Everything everything changes. Whether you're a therapist, a mom, a papa, a partner, the speaker can discern whether you're really in it to get what it's like for them or not. And I've seen it innumerable times. Even in my practice, where I would say something that's half-assed, and I can feel the client move back a millimeter. They just feel it and they and they don't even mention it because it's what we're used to. We're used to people not really listening. And also the difference, when I'm genuinely present and curious, I feel them leaning in. I watch their face brighten. Um and to me, that's where the magic is. Where where my intention to really get what it's like for you, um, and to be able to sit in that unknown for a period of time and be comfortable in not knowing and follow curiosity, it changes relationships.

Listening That Builds Kids’ Confidence

SPEAKER_00 11:43

I I can absolutely right now I'm in visualizing different conversations I've had with different people in my life. And I have been blessed with a uh a few friends who are very much like that. They very much listen, they want to know how I feel, and not just so that they can say, Oh, yeah, I I did this too, or I was super mad when my husband did this, you know. And then I obviously have a lot of friendships that are, you know, the the other, the latter. And it is we it's easier to fall into superficial conversations and it's safer, you know. Like if I did if we I've been really open myself up to hearing you, I'm putting myself into a situation where I might be hurt because you're hurt, or I might be upset with myself because I hurt you, you know, and it's we don't, you know, it's nature that we want to protect ourselves. So do you think that that is is it human nature that we want those connections, or is it human nature that we also build superficial relationships, or could it be both?

SPEAKER_01 12:45

I that's a really good question. I love this question. And and I'm biased here. I think it's our natural inclination to be listened to and listen. And I think if we parents screw it up royally, so we raise children because we're busy and whatever, we raise them such that they believe the world isn't that interested in hearing what I have to say, especially if I'm confused as to how to say it. The world isn't patient. So we develop defenses, protection mechanisms to protect ourselves from that innate longing to really be heard and to really hear. And then as we grow, those defenses and protections become confused with who I am as a person. I think I'm those defenses and protections. So a lot of the work I do with people is helpful, I call them filters, help them see the filter, how it blocks receptivity, how it blocks expression, get rid of those and find what you might call the true self or a more authentic self, where our natural inclinations, like you asked, are being realized, whether it's as a speaker or as a listener. And again, I'm sure you've seen it as a mom, and probably your listeners have seen it too in their kids. When you're really present and really curious, your kids are responding in a way that they're loving it. It's like, yes, that's what I need. That's what I want you to do, mom, dad. I want you to really. And when you don't, they'll respond also, they'll pull away. Or if they're older, they'll get angry, or they're they'll storm off. Or as a little kid, you just you can watch them just shut down. Little kids give up. They don't have the fight in them to say, Mom, will you sit down and listen to me? They say, right, right. I've learned this already. People don't listen. And it hurts. It just hurts.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

I think that, and and you've said, like, you know, we we screwed up whenever we did not make listening to our kids a priority. And I feel like I I've learned a lot in the past few years of doing this podcast. And I have tried to take things from that that I have learned and actively implement them in my life. And I'm better at it in a lot of things when it comes to conversations and listening to my kids. But obviously, there's a lot of times when I mess up in the day-to-day. I mean, we're doing so many things. So it can be really hard to say, let me pause what I'm doing right now and let's talk about it. So, how do we keep this like? But it's so important, right? So, how do we keep this in the forefront of our minds that really the relationships, the conversations we have with our kids and our family are the most important thing outside of making sure that they're alive, you know?

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Yeah. You mean how do we stay there?

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

That that's a good one. It's hard to because we're so programmed that the world is not here for that. So again, those filters, they build up quite thickly over time. And it's hard for us to see them for what they are. And I think the the real answer goes back to what you said earlier. Do we have a genuine curiosity to understand and feel what it's like for the other person? Because when you type when you palpate that, it just grows. Um when one starts to feel like, oh, I see

Why We Hide Behind Superficial Talk

SPEAKER_01 16:18

my child in a completely different way because of this conversation. That's so rewarding that we want to do it more and more and more. But we can screw we can screw it up royally when we're busy, stressed, and all that other stuff. My son is now uh he has two two girls, and he's a pediatrician. So he comes home and he's you know stressed. And he wrote to me and said, Papa, is that what it was like for you? When you when you came home, his brother, Lucas, and I would, you know, jump on you. Papa's home. And you would say, Honey, let me just get out of my costume and and I'll come be with you. He said, Was that what? Because I do that with my girls. I come home and they just jump on me and it's like, wait, I have to get home first. I said, Yes, it's exactly like that. And I'm so sorry if you got the impression that my changing my clothes and coming down was more important than you. I was just, I just, you know, saw nine clients. I need to, you know, get a drink of water and get here. And he said, Papa, I get it. Yeah, I feel the same way about my girls. I I really want to change and just get here. And then I feel bad that they were so enthusiastic to see me. And I even gently pushed them off a little bit, like, let me just get dressed. I said, Right, that's the challenge of listening. We get in the way of it. And it's oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

No, you go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

I thought if I had been this conscious when I was, you know, 27 when I had them, I would have just, you know, gotten on my knees and scooped them up and played with them for a few minutes or longer than that, and then gone up and changed my clothes.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

But I get lost in my own silliness sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Well, and I think it's it's so easy to see in retrospect, you know, it it what we should have done. And that and my goodness now to think of my kids like running and jumping on me when I just walk in the door, like I would I would cry tears of happiness if they did that, because teenagers don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Right. Exactly that. Exactly that.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

So, what do you say to the parent who's listening who's like, okay, I get this, I can see where I have not made my child feel like a priority that I really care and truly want to understand what's going on with them. And now I have a hard time getting them to open up to me. How do we fix it?

SPEAKER_01 18:43

I think there are so many variables that could be involved in that, it would be hard to answer it generally. But I would go after it. I would if it's a tea, let's say a 15-year-old, Sweetie, let's go out and get ice cream. And then I would say I would I would want to admit, you know what, I I think I have messed up some. I think sometimes I didn't listen to you right. And I think because of me, there's a distance between us. Because we parents will often think because of the teenager acting out, they're doing it. Yeah. No, no, you're not listening even now. They're angry at you or distant or whatever, because of how you haven't listened. So own that. Come back to I I think I've dropped the ball here. And do it like that. Like I I really see it. And I see the consequences of that. So what was it like for you that those times when I didn't listen?

Repairing Trust With Teens Through Ownership

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Invite the hard conversation where the kid feels like they have an opportunity to say, Well, do you remember last week, Mom, when you dot dot dot? And for you to go, right, I right, I was kind of busy and lost or whatever I was. Yeah, that's a good example, sweetie. What else? Tell me more. You want to hear more about how you messed up, mom? Great. Okay, so and then if the child feels safe, they'll start listing places where they felt dropped. And for us not to get cooked into I'm sorry, hooked into, hey, I'm not that bad a parent. I did the best I could. It's not even about that. It's I want to have a different quality relationship with you. And I I know how to do that now. And it means you and I talking about how I've dropped the ball. And then we pick it up together and we and we start tossing the ball back and forth.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Because I can almost guarantee that if you really do that with a teenager, at some point they're gonna say, What was it like for you, Papa? What was it like for you, mom? They'll be curious in response. Maybe not that first conversation, but they will. And it's one of the, if I may, it's one of the beautiful things I have with my boys. They'll even text me, hey papa, how about that thing? How are you doing with that? They'll want to know what it's like for me because now we have this connection where we're genuinely curious about what it's like for the other. And I have to tell you, I celebrate that every day. That my children want to know what life is like for this old man.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Yeah. Yeah. That that you're really speaking to my heart right now. Well, tell me how. What is well, no, just because uh my parents and thinking, you know, I don't show enough interest in what they do. And oftentimes we think, well, if somebody's retired, they don't have, you know, it's not like I can be like, how's work? You have to work to find other conversation starters and you know, to show interest in their life. Just because they're not working anymore doesn't mean they don't have an interesting life or things that they want to share with people they love. Yeah. Right. Well, what you mentioned one other thing that um I and like I said, this conversation's very timely. I just had a situation very similar with my 17-year-old over the weekend. And the next day, I realized, you know what, I was in the wrong and apologized to him. And I, you know, wanted him to be like, it's okay, mom. I had really hurt his feelings unintentionally, but I had. And he was not like, it's okay. Or I mean, he well, he did. He he was more like, it's fine.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

You know. And so, and for me, I'm one of those people that if I mess up, I want you to understand why I made that mistake. And this is what I did, and this is what I was thinking. And and I, you know, I really messed up and I know it, but here's why. Does that matter to our kids? Like what was going on, the things that had happened in the hours prior to that that made me kind of on edge anyways? Do does do I need to go down that path with something in a situation like that? Or do I just say, you know what? I was really short with you and I'm I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Well, I again I think it depends on the situation. But generally speaking, yeah, I think it's good because that's the vulnerability of the parent is, uh, my bad. I I blew that one. And for the child to feel your ongoing vulnerability about, oh, I messed up. Because we parents are so trained, a la our parents, to be the authority, yeah, to be the disciplinarian, that we know what you need, as opposed to actually I know a little bit about that stuff, but basically I don't know exactly what you need unless I ask questions and hear from you what you need. So to f but to me, it the the real issue is all about tone. If I genuinely want to know what was it like for you, I dropped the ball there. What was that like for you? If I'm really asking that question, that's the thing that really touches the child along along a line that they're rarely tucked, rarely touch, which is wait, you really want to hear what it was like for me, as opposed to you saw that I was washing dishes, so I don't know what you expect from me when you come up and start talking to me. Like we we're so programmed to correct their behavior as opposed to I want to err on the side of you know sometimes I get a little angry when you talk to me when I'm washing dishes, but you came up to me anyway. It must be important. What was that? Let them know you really want to shift out of the old pattern and really hear from them. The whole relationship will shift. Guaranteed. I'll bet anybody a cappuccino, it will change.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

And and like I said, what more do we want for our kids than to them to grow up to be happy, healthy, empathetic people, but also people that that we can talk to, that they trust us, that they have conversations with us. I know as a teen mom, I see so many teen parents so concerned about I think my teen's hiding something, they're sneaking or whatever, you know, and and how much nicer is it? How much easier can we sleep at night if we know that they feel comfortable coming to us and knowing that we'll listen?

SPEAKER_01 25:04

That's right. And it's a game changer. Exactly what you said, that they would feel comfortable coming to us. And that's completely dependent on how we teach them. Right? If if we've taught them we don't listen, and then at 15, they're angry and withdrawn. The issue isn't that they're angry and withdrawn. The issue is we're not listening to that they're angry and withdrawn. And why? And then to be able to go, absolutely, sweetie, you're right. I I've been so busy in my career, or that I have 16 children, or the dog is barking, or that I didn't listen. So I'm here now. I'm so sorry. Tell me, what is it you wanted to share with me? And you'll see the kite could go, wait, what? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

It is when when you think about it, it really boils down to it's very simple. You know, it is really very simple.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

It's really simple, but the difficulty is to

Listening As Humility And Daily Practice

SPEAKER_01 26:03

stay with listening, uh, stay with the intention that I'm listening because I just want to know what it's like in there underneath your narrative. Because we're so quick to, oh, my child's just said this thing. That reminds me of this other thing. And now we're speaking from that busy mind place as opposed to the quiet that's required to stay in curiosity.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

To really stay humble. It's one of the chapters in the book. How to stay humble that I don't know what's going on. I want to ask questions until I really have a felt experience of what it's like for you. Yeah. And we we divert from that intention in a in a split second.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Right. And oftentimes too, I think we listen with the intention of talking. You know, I'm asking you questions because I want to be able to prove to you how you were wrong and I was right or whatever, you know. And that um it obviously is a very different type of conversation and a different. I guess we have to go and know, know our intention and keep that intention. My intention is not to prove myself right to my kids. I don't care if they ever know that I was right and they were wrong in this situation, as long as they know that I love them.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

And I think that's a really good way to do it. Hold keep in my mind, my intention is to really get at what it's like for them. So when they say, Oh, at the baseball game, and I'm thinking, oh, right, they struck out. Okay, that's interesting. Come back to so what happened at the baseball game? Just to watch that busy mind. It's almost listening, it's like a meditation. Stay in the quiet so I can really receive what's being spoken and get out of the busy mind that always has something to say, always has some correction to offer a child, um, or wants to get them from here to there, as opposed to wait, first let me get what here is like. And then together we can talk about what might there look like.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

But first things first.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Well, Randall,

Book, Audiobook, And Closing Thoughts

SPEAKER_00 28:03

this has been a really interesting conversation. I love uh the ideas, I love all of it. Like I said, it sounds so simple. We just have to be, you know, intentional about it. And you are you take clients, but you also have a book. Tell us a little bit about what you offer. If anybody's like, okay, I like where this is going. I need more.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Well, they can certainly get the book on Amazon. It's called Listening in the Raw intentionally, because we have to be feeling raw to really receive. Um uh and you can then go to my website and read that and gather any information they want. They can reach out to me if they wish. Happy to talk with them. But getting the book would be a good start. And I'll tell you something else: a little sales promotion. My son Lucas, who I referenced earlier, he does the audiobook.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Oh, great.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

So have my boy read my book. That's heaven.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

That's awesome. And he's I was wondering. Sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

He's the Earl of Dad jokes. He tells dad jokes online. He has 600,000 followers. And so he he's very used to speaking um to groups and such. So he did the book, and I think he did a great job.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

That's awesome. I'm an audio listener. I listen to audiobooks all the time. So I was hopeful that there was an audiobook because that's the version I want. But how cool is that that your son narrates it.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

Very cool. Killer.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

Well, again, Randall, thank you for sharing all this information. Thank you for your time today, and thank you for doing what you do. You know, like we said at the beginning, conversations and the the art of conversation, I feel like is in a massive breakdown in our in our world. So the more like focus we can put on it, um, I think the better for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

Thank you. Yes, it was lovely to meet you. I love this conversation. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 29:51

Thanks for being here and thanks for listening.